My guest Vicki Latham is a board certified physician assistant, who has been working, primarily in Woman’s Health for over 30 years, delivering babies during 10 of those years. She is semi-retired and currently works in a internal medicine/family health practice, at Associates of Medicine in Stillwater, OK. Vicki has great concern about protecting the health of the pre-born, who are especially vulnerable to the effects of toxins because of their rapid development and immature functioning of their detoxification pathways while in utero. It is her passion to encourage all women of childbearing age to detoxify their body before and during pregnancy and lactation. When not spending time with the families of her 4 children, and 8 grandchildren, Vicki travels extensively throughout the U.S. and Canada, educating people on the benefits of detoxification, and healthy living choices. Vicki can be reached at 405-614-0079 or toxinclear@gmail.com.

 

 

TOXIC FREE TALK RADIO
Why Women (and Men!) of Childbearing Age Need to Detox Their Bodies Before Having Babies

Host: Debra Lynn Dadd
Guest: Vicki Latham

Date of Broadcast: May 07, 2013

DEBRA: Hi, I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and this is , Toxic Free Talk Radio, where we talk about how to thrive in a toxic world. Even though there are a lot of toxic chemicals around in all kinds of products, we don’t have to get sick from them, we don’t have to live with them, we don’t have to have them in our bodies. And that’s what we talk about on this show.

Today is Tuesday, May 7, 2013. I’m live here in Clearwater, Florida. Well, I’m live but you might be listening to the archive. And today, we’re going to talk about why you should detox your body if you’re a woman or a man of child-bearing age.

But first, I want to tell you about something that came in my e-mail. I think it was yesterday. This is why I do what I do. It was a special report from Environmental Health News. It says, “Chemicals of high concern found in thousands of children’s products.”

And what happened was a new law went into effect last September in the State of Washington that allows consumers access to a searchable online database that shows which companies reported chemicals of high concern in products made or marketed for children.

Now, this new law opened up the right to know because there are so many laws that make it possible for manufacturers to put things in products and not tell us. And so this law, which was passed a few years ago, was put into effect last September. And now, some questionnaires were sent out to various companies, manufacturers and retailers, asking them what toxic chemicals are in their products that aren’t necessarily on the label.

And now, there’s a database that has all this information.

This is a result of the Children’s Safe Product Act which shows 66 chemicals that have been linked to cancer or reproductive developmental or neurological effects in animals or people. And you can get the link to this. You can go online to my website. Actually, just go to ToxicFreeTalkRadio.com, and then across the top, there is a menu. And in the menu, near the left, it says, “Q&A.” And just click on “Q&A.” And today is item is right at the top of the page, Chemicals of High Concern Found in Thousands of Children’s Products. And you can read the entire article about this and the results that they found in the chemicals that they found, and how prevalent this is.

Virtually, if you’re not specifically choosing children’s toys, beds and clothing, and everything that a child uses, personal care products, if you’re not specifically choosing these to be free of toxic chemicals, there are toxic chemicals in these products that cause cancer, reproductive development and neurological effects in animals and people.

So please go take a look at that.

Now, our guest today is Vicki Latham. And Vicki Latham is a board-certified physician assistant, who has been working primarily in Woman’s Health for over 30 years, delivering babies for the past 10 years. She is semi-retired and currently works in an internal medicine family health practice in Stillwater, Oklahoma.

She’s also a grandmother and she has four children of her own, and I think, eight grandchildren; eight grandchildren, yes.

And she has discovered from her observation and study that toxic chemicals, just the ordinary toxic chemicals that we’re being exposed to every day and on these products, are greatly affecting the health of children, even before they are conceived.

And I’m going to let you explain all of this. Vicki will explain all of this to you because she has the medical training and has some research that we really need to be concerned about or conscious of. If you want to have a baby, you need to grow that baby in a clean body, and the sperm and the egg that come together to make that baby, need to not be toxic; and that it really does. I’ve read these studies too. It really does affect the health of your child throughout their lives if they are born starting with a toxic beginning.

So welcome to Toxic Free Talk Radio, Vicki. I’m very, very…

VICKI LATHAM: Thanks.

DEBRA: …happy that you are here. And the first question that I have for you is, just tell us how you became interested in toxic chemical exposure, and what you observed, as a medical professional, that made you passionate about detoxing child-bearing women and men.

VICKI LATHAM: Thanks. And how I actually developed my passion for woman in childbirth began when I was pregnant with my very first daughter, Dana, back in 1971. And now, she has three precious children of her own, Marin and [McQuay], who are two and four, who are both geniuses. I’m a proud grandma.

When I was pregnant with Dana, I went to childbirth classes and I decided then that I didn’t want any unnecessary interventions or chemicals put in my body during that process. And so I had her and all four of my children without any pain medications or other medications.

Well, they were so impressed by my birth and her 10 Apgar score, which is really rare in the [inaudible 00:07:27]

DEBRA: What is an Apgar score?

VICKI LATHAM: Apgar scores are a scoring that you give to babies at one minute and five minutes that assess five different things that determine how well the baby is doing; it’s color, it’s respiration, it’s reflexes. And these things are very important in how aggressive you want to be with determining how healthy that baby is doing right from the get-go.

So 10 Apgar is your highest score than you can get. And it’s very rare in high altitudes that children can be born completely pink at one minute because of the lack of oxygen. But she was.

So they were so impressed that they asked me if I would come and teach the nurses at the hospital where I gave birth how we assist women in having unmedicated births.

And that was the beginning of my journey. And then for the past 40 years, I taught Childbirth Education classes, I counseled women on breastfeeding, then I was a licensed midwife in New Mexico for 10 years and had my own birthing center, and really worked to emphasize the importance of healthy living and nutrition to my patients. And then I went to PA School in 1990. And since then, I have been working in internal medicine, the emergency medicine, woman’s health, and also, for nine years, the Woman’s Health Practitioner at a major university, working with adolescent women as they were beginning to make very serious decisions about their sexual healthy.

And then for the past few years, I’ve been working in an internal medicine practice, helping people, they are older in life, and mostly working with one of my other fashion, which is diabetes.

And so in the course all of my experience, what I’ve come to believe is that detoxification is your first step on your journey to optimal health.

DEBRA: I agree.

VICKI LATHAM: And if we do not detoxify our young women and our future mothers before and during pregnancy, I really have a fear about this future of human beings on this planet.

So this is my passion and it’s my purpose to take this message about Environmental Toxicity and the benefits of effective, safe, easy detoxification to everyone, but especially women of child-bearing age.

DEBRA: Well, what was it that happened that made you make this switch to be so interested in toxics?

VICKI LATHAM: Well, I was actually looking for something that I was antiviral that would be natural. That’s when I discovered [inaudible 00:10:21] and it benefits in that way.

And then from that I gave the product to all of my family members and I saw such incredible, remarkable results in all of them, especially in my grandson, who had severe asthma. He has been hospitalized five times with asthma attacks, had rashes on his body. And within three weeks of taking that he was completely clear. His skin was clear, the rashes were gone, and he hasn’t had an asthma attack since then.

DEBRA: We need to go to commercial break, so we’ll be right back and talk more about that. You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio.

=COMMERCIAL BREAK=

DEBRA: We’re back. This is Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd and I’m here with midwife, Vicki Latham. And we’re talking about why women and men of child-bearing age need to detox their bodies before they conceive and having babies.

And Vicki that was exactly the way I became interested in detox too. I took Zeolite detox products, and the result was so remarkable for me and people around me that I said, “What a minute. Why are walking around with all these toxic chemicals?”

But before we talk about what people can do to remove toxic chemicals from their bodies, tell us what specifically is the problem about environmental toxic chemicals for pregnant women, and why it’s important that they remove what’s in their body prior to conceiving.

VICKI LATHAM: Well, the one thing that we absolutely won’t inherit from our mothers are her toxin. Unless you do something to change that you are going to see those results in your babies. And when you’re pregnant, most women are worried about everything, and while some of these news might be distressing, it is also very empowering because I want to alert people to the problems but I also want to help them get a new vision for how they can have a toxin clear pregnancy and give birth to a child born clear without that inheritance of your toxin.

The CDC says that in 2001, they did a study checking the body burden. The body burden of toxin is those toxins that are left in our body after our body does its normal processes through our liver and our kidneys, and our bowel and our breath and our skin. We normally get these things out. Our bodies are very good at detoxing. But when the amount of toxins we’re exposed to becomes too high, our body stores them. And it stores them in the most inert tissue it can find, usually fat and bones.

And so they tested this in 2001, and they said the average American had about 27 toxins.

They re-tested it in 2009, and they found that it was 212. CDC also says that 10 per cent of women have mercury levels high enough to cause fetal damage.

So this is a very new and emerging issue. There are over 80,000 chemicals out there, only about 200 have ever been tested for effects on pregnancy and fetal development. And 71% of the chemicals that are on the ETA list of the 7,000 worst chemicals were only created in the past 10 years.

This is really, truly an emerging problem. And then the Environmental Working Group did a study showing that the umbilical cord blood of newborns have over 200 toxic chemicals in them; things like Teflon and flame retardant, and heavy metals and insecticides; all kinds of toxic environmental chemicals. And this study has been repeated in Europe and in other places as well.

So awareness of these issues for the general public, I think, really came about in August of 2012. I call this the tipping point for toxins.

And that was when Johnson & Johnson, and I do want to applaud them for having at least the courage for being the first, huge, multinational corporation to this, that they announced that they were going to take their endocrine-disrupting chemicals out of their baby care products. Because believe it or not, they admit it, that in things that we’ve come to accept as really part of our baby culture, the smell of baby powder that their physician representative stated that in this powder, and in the baby creams and the shampoos are chemicals that can contribute to an increased risk of premature puberty in girls, the conversion of testosterone to estrogen in boys, it can increase their risk for obesity, diabetes and behavioral issues.

They admitted this and they said that they were going to take these chemicals out of these products by 2013.

Another reason that people would like to see, on Bill Moyers & Company, in the last Saturday in April, you can watch this on CBS, there was a very articulate woman who talked about these issues. And you can go online and observe this if you’d like because really want you to become aware of this. The information about this is everywhere.

But most people live under the illusion that the industry and government is working to keep us safe. And there are many people in industry and government who do care about these issues. Our Tax Dollars at Work, there are two websites that you can check out. One is called Tox Town. Just Google that. Another is PubMed.gov. This is the Library of Congress for Medicine. And you can go in and put in anything you’re concerned about and all the medical studies will come up. And you can research this for ourselves.

But if you are pregnant, you can’t wait for years for the government to regulate these changes or for corporations to step up and begin to do the right thing regarding their toxic input that they are getting to your body. You need to have a toxin-clear lifestyle now because toxins go where the water flows and the wind blows. And you just can’t say no to toxins. They’re in what you eat, what you breathe and what you drink. And so we got to get them out of our body so that we won’t pass them to the next generation.

DEBRA: I completely agree. Now, you’ve talked to me before about epigenetics. Could you explain what that is?

VICKI LATHAM: Yes. This is a fascinating and emerging science that really does a great job in explaining the biological complexity of life. And when they did the National Genome Project, they expected that we would have millions of genes. They found out that we actually have less than 25,000 genes, but every gene has thousands of epigenetic expression. Because what distinguishes ourselves is not their gene, but it’s how the genes are switched on or switched off by epigenetics.

And I think this is a good example of how this kind of information takes a long time to get to the general public. Because I know when people first hear this, I call it a “deer and the headlights” look. People look at you like, “Are you kidding me?”

But it takes a really long time for this kind of information to come in to the general public.

There was a benchmark study at the University of Washington in 2005, showing that these epigenetic changes are passed four generations. And then there was another program in October of 2007, and a Time Magazine cover story in January 2012.

So from research in 2005 until 2012, before the general public was even aware of it, about epigenetics and what it’s doing.

DEBRA: We need to take another break, so we’ll talk about more about this after the commercial break. This is Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd.

=COMMERCIAL BREAK=

DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd and I’m here today with midwife, Vicki Latham. And we’re talking about why women and men of child-bearing age need to detox their bodies before they conceive children.

Now, we were talking about genetics, Vicki, before the break. And I had a question for you. We were talking about epigenetics, which is about genes turning on and off various characteristics. I got that, right?

So I read another book. The title escapes me at the moment, but it was about food. And the author was talking about the same thing, where the environmental conditions make the genes turn on and off various things, and that you could actually improve your genes by getting proper nutrition.

And I remember when I was reading that I thought, “Well, if food can turn things on and off in your genetic make-up, then chemicals certainly could do that.” And that how many things that we think, although it’s genetic, are simply inadequate nutrition or environmental chemicals.

And I think it’s fascinating because I think that we could actually change our health overall and our bodies; the way our faces work, and how we feel, what we think, just by the things that we’re exposed to and how that affects our genes.

VICKI LATHAM: Yes, absolutely. The activity of the genetics expressions of these proteins can be disrupted by many things, and the most common things are heavy metal, industrial toxins, viruses, funguses, some medication and malnutrition. So the good news is that these codes can be switched back on or switched back off because our body wants to be healthy. It wants to function at its maximum potential if it can. And so many of these things that we used to think were genetic such as heart disease, diabetes, obesity and behavioral issues, we now think they are not genetic; that they are epigenetic. And that is great news because while genetics can’t be changed, epigenes can.

DEBRA: Yes, I’m very excited about this

So tell us some things that women and men can do before, during and after conception. Well, obviously, men can’t do anything after conception to change their bodies. They can but it won’t affect the child. But what women can do before, during and after conception to clear toxic stuff out of their bodies and keep toxic chemicals out of the bodies of their developing children?

VICKI LATHAM: Well, before pregnancy, of course, you want to detoxify and you want to maximize your nutritional status. Then during pregnancy, you want to detoxify and how you do that safely, I’m going to talk about next. And then, of course, you want to maximize your nutrition with whole, unadulterated food because it will hopefully have some life in them.

A friend of mine says, “It’s not the food in your life that matters. It’s the life in your food that matters.”

And so you want to eat food that’s been alive recently. You’re building a live baby in there and you want to have healthy foods. And so Raw Food Movement has really done a lot to bring about awareness of the benefits of that.

And also that the supplements that you take be made out of food and not out of chemicals.

DEBRA: Let’s talk about that for a minute. I’d just like to talk about that for a minute because I think that most people aren’t aware, really, because they think they’re taking natural vitamins. They’re not aware that most of the actual nutrients are made from petroleum. Dead dinosaurs. And there’s a big difference between feeding your body and feeding your baby dead dinosaurs. And feeding them live nutrients that are formed by plants, from sunshine and oxygen and rain, and all of those things that make up plants.

And it’s just such a difference and so important that when you’re choosing a dietary supplement to get the best supplements that you can that are made out of whole foods.

VICKI LATHAM: Absolutely. These things all work better logistically; the enzymes have to be in tact as the catalyst to cause the chemical reaction to be correct. And things like folic acid. We all know that folic acid is important for a pregnant woman because it has been shown to reduce, virtually eliminate the risk of neural tube defects and things such as spinal bifida and cleft palate. But not as a chemical folic acid that’s made in a lab, but as folic acid naturally, as it occurs synergistically a part of the B complex.

And so eating high sources of food, primarily, green, leafy vegetables are about our best source of folic acids, mixed with the synergy of all the other b vitamins that are there. Because they all have to be present; that’s why they call it a complex. They all have to be present for them to work correctly.

So it’s very important.

And then after pregnancy, it’s just a miracle to me that we not only grow our children, and after they’re born, we continue to grow them by feeding them with our breast milk. And unfortunately, though, our breast milk is subject to toxins just like anything else.

There was a study done a few years ago where they tested the breast milk of women before and after flying in an airplane. And after the milk was tested, it has flame-retardant. She has fuel present in the milk.

So again detoxification is critical so that you don’t pass on toxins in your breast milk.

DEBRA: And it’s not just a one-time thing. It’s ongoing because we’re exposed to these chemicals, as you just said. Flying in an airplane, it changed the chemical composition of the breast milk because it had new toxic chemicals in it.

So it’s not just about doing once, it’s every day that our body naturally is detoxing itself every day. But we need to continue to help them every day because we have such a huge amount of toxic chemicals in the environment.

VICKI LATHAM: Yes, and I’m totally convinced that breast milk is still absolutely the optimal way to feed a newborn because if our milk has toxins, you can imagine the toxins that are in cow’s milk, milk that is not raised organically, it has been pasteurized for the enzymes. They’re necessary for the body to use the nutrients. And cow’s milk was designed to baby cows, not baby humans. The breast milk for each creature has been uniquely created for each of us mammals.

And so I don’t want, in any way, discourage women from breastfeeding. But you do need to detoxify your milk while you are breastfeeding.

DEBRA: Well, as you’re talking, I’m thinking that the one thing that we have the most control over is our own body. And if we’re choosing breast milk, we have more control over the quality of our breast milk than we do over any cow or any goats or any other animals. And we can do things such as eat the proper nutrition and detox our bodies so that we can produce the best breast milk possible.

And we need to take another break but we’ll be right back, and we’ll continue to talk on this subject. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio.

=COMMERCIAL BREAK=

DEBRA: We’re back on Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and my guest today is midwife, Vicki Latham. And we’re talking about what women and men of child-bearing age can do to detox their bodies before conceiving a child.

And before we get back to that session, I just want to mention, at the top of the hour, I was talking about this new collection of information gathered about toxic chemicals that are found in children’s products. And these same toxic chemicals that are in these children’s products, and shouldn’t be there, are also in our bodies. Everyone else, unless we’ve done something, like Vicki and I have, to remove them from our bodies.

You’re walking around with the same toxic chemicals that are known to cause cancer, reproductive development, neurological effects and everything else.

When I was writing my most recent book, Toxic Free, I found that toxic chemicals are now associated with every single symptom and illness. And so we don’t have much control over what the manufacturers were doing. But we can sure take those toxic chemicals out of our own bodies and not house them onto our children.

So Vicki, tell us what you found to be the most effective way to do this.

VICKI LATHAM: Yes, Debra. You really hit on something. When I went to medical school as a physician assistant, there was virtually no education at all about toxins. And now, it is on my list, my differential diagnosis list, with every patient I’m looking for. What could be a toxin that could be contributing to this?

But when we think about detoxification, most people, the first thing that pops into the head is a colon cleanse that can aid their liver in doing a better job of detoxification or they might think of things like fasting or [inaudible 00:40:43], things that will help you to get the toxins out.

But what these things do is they actually stimulate the body to release the toxins from where they’ve been stored in the body (usually in fat and bones, but can be on receptors [inaudible 00:40:58] tissue). And then it requires the body to actively do the work of detoxifying. And we do not want the body doing this kind of act of detoxification in pregnancy. We don’t want to stimulate your toxins to be released back into your bloodstream because then it can travel into the fetal circulation.

And fetuses do not have active detoxification pathways like we do. Their liver doesn’t function, until after they’re born, to do this kind of work.

So we don’t want these toxins going into their active circulation where it could affect neurologically or another way.

So what I have found is this incredible mineral, which you’ve been talking about, called clinoptilolite. And it works so different but completely safely. It’s a natural, negatively-charged mineral with a cage-like molecular structure, and the clinoptilolite goes into the bloodstream where it’s a toxin trap. It draws into and unto itself, positively-charged bad things, and so you just swallow a clean cage and you excrete a dirty one. And this process has nothing that it requires the body to do except to pump the blood around the body. But the clinoptilolite vacuums up the toxins as it travel. It creates no stress for your body, no hassle for you, and no risk to your baby.

The thing that’s really the most amazing about this is that it also is selective. It doesn’t have an affinity for healthy things like potassium or calcium, calcium particularly. Your baby is growing these bones. If you don’t’ want that to be removed from the body, you just want the mercury and the lead and the bisphenol and the phthalates and the benzene, that’s what you want out. And it really has no attraction for those things. And so it just takes out the trash and you just put it in the dump the next time you urinate or have a bowel movement. It’s 100 per cent excreted, six to eight hours after you take it, which is why it is completely safe for pregnancy.

Here’s a couple of examples of how this works. Now, we know that eating fish, women who eat more fish in pregnancy have children who has higher IQ. But we also know that our fish supply is full of mercury.

So what’s a woman to do? Well, if you have this clinoptilolite traveling into your blood because you either sprayed it into your mouth or you dropped it in water and ingested it, this is traveling in your blood. Any mercury that was in that fish is going to be trapped by the cages and urinated out your next trip to the bathroom.

Another thing is that we all have lead stored in our bones and it likes to displace calcium. So when a pregnant woman needs calcium for her baby, which she does, then as the body goes and breaks down that calcium to give to the baby, it also breaks down and releases the lead back into her bloodstream where it can travel into the baby, potentially causing neurotoxicity, or you can have the little cages floating in your blood that are going to not attract the calcium but will trap the lead. And so the baby never gets the lead, the baby is healthier, and mama gets the lead out.

So you see how safe and practical, and really, I think, revolutionary this is.

DEBRA: I think it is too because it actually makes it; people, I think, have a viewpoint that they have to be concerned about what they put into their body, especially when you’re pregnant. You’re not supposed to drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes or things like that. But we don’t really have this sense that there are things in our body that need to come out.

And that’s where, I think, that it’s hard for some people to grasp the idea of doing a detox because we don’t have the awareness that there are these chemicals and that they’re interfering with natural processes.

But the way you described it, I can completely understand. If I was pregnant, well, I’m not pregnant, but I’m still doing exactly what you recommend. I do it because there’s no point in having these toxic chemicals sitting around in my body, building up a point where they could be making me sick. And eventually, they will if we don’t do something about it. And it makes it possible to do the beneficial things, like eat fish, because this is a way to not have mercury in our body, or to get the calcium, as you said.

I just wanted to tell everybody who are listening that I call it Zeolite because I can’t pronounce clinoptilolite. I think it’s easier to remember Zeolite.

But I want to tell people where they can get this. I resell it. You can go to my website, ToxicFreeTalkRadio.Ccom, and there’s a button, a little ad on the right that looks like a magnet. And it says Zeolite in big letters. And you can just click on there.

You can buy it from Vicki, if you want. She doesn’t have her own personal website but she has website where you can buy the clinoptilolite. I’m going to learn how to say that.

You can go to ToxicFreeTalkRadio.com and it has a phone number where you can reach her, and also has e-mail where you can reach her. So you can buy it from either one of us. And there are distributors throughout the country. The brand that she and I both like is Pure Body, which is made by Touchstone Essentials. And I had Eddie Stone on the show, who is the founder and CEO of Touchstone Essentials.

Vicki, tell us more why people should buy this clinoptilolite, am I getting it right?

VICKI LATHAM: The reason that I like to say clinoptilolite is there is about 50 different Zeolites. And this is one of those 50, and it’s the one that’s the most studied. You can put that in. You can type in clinoptilolite on PubMed. You can see over 30 studies including animal studies, studies of the breast milk of animals.

So we know that this isn’t something that we’re just making up. This is stuff that has real science behind it.

But when you’re choosing your clinoptilolite products, which does have [inaudible 00:48:06] status from the FDA meaning that it is safe to be taken in pregnancy and by anyone of any age, including pregnant women, it has four really critical factors. You want to look at purity, particle size, activation and third party validation.

Clinoptilolite, this occurs in nature, but the Zeolites are dirty already. They’ve been doing what it is their nature they do and trapping toxins into their cages. And so you want to go with the company that can prove that they’ve completely purified the molecule. So you’re putting clean cages in that’s going to attract your toxins.

Particle size matters because if it’s not been sized down, so that it can get into the bloodstream where it can do a good job in your GI tract, it really doesn’t get into the bloodstream. And in pregnancy that’s where we want this traveling. We want it traveling through your bloodstream, trapping and capturing any toxins that your body happens to break down, or any toxins that are present in what you eat, drink or breathe. We want those things captured so that they won’t go into the baby.

The other is activation. You want to make sure that the processing hasn’t damaged the negative charge because it’s that negative charge that attracts the positively-charged, heavy metals and industrial toxins and insecticides and all these terrible things that we don’t want in our body, especially when we’re pregnant.

And then the final thing is third party validation. And this is the only company, Touchstone Essentials, that I know that will provide you complete transparency and third party independent research. There is a few that do it in-house, but to me that’s [inaudible 00:49:51] in-house. I want independent people telling me that the product I’m putting in my body, and especially, the body of my daughters when they’re pregnant, which they have been using this, and of course that’s why I have such outstanding grandchildren.

DEBRA: I’m sorry to cut you off, but the radio station will cut us off if we don’t stop talking. So [cross-talking]. Go to ToxicFreeTalkRadio.com and you can read more about Vicki and more about what we’ve been talking about.

I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. This is ToxicFreeTalkRadio.com