My guest is Beth Terry. After learning about the devastating effects of plastic pollution on the environment and human health, this Oakland, california accountant began an experiment to see if she could live without buying any new plastic. Since then, she has reduced her plastic waste to less than 2% of the national average. That experiment turned into the popular blog 
MyPlasticFreeLife.com and new book Plastic-Free: How I Kicked the Plastic Habit and How You Can Too. A founding member of the Plastic Pollution Coalition, Terry gives presentations on plastic-free living and why, despite what some critics assert, our personal actions really do make a difference. Her work and life have been profiled in the award-winning film Bag It, as well as Susan Freinkel’s book, Plastic: A Toxic Love Story and Captain Charles Moore’s Plastic Ocean. – See more at: http://myplasticfreelife.com
TOXIC FREE TALK RADIO
How to Kick the Plastic Habit and Improve Your Health and the Environment
Host: Debra Lynn Dadd
Guest: Beth Terry
Date of Broadcast: July 22, 2013
DEBRA: Hi, I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. And this is Toxic Free Talk Radio, where we talk about how to thrive in a toxic world.
Just because there are toxic chemicals all around us doesn’t mean that we have to be affected by them. It doesn’t mean that we have to damage our health or destroy the environment. We can do things to live without toxic chemicals.
Today is Monday, July 22, 2013, and I’m here in Clearwater, Florida. It’s a beautiful day. The sun is shining after more than three weeks of rain every day. The sun is shining today here.
We’re going to talk about plastics. The whole hour is going to be about plastics. And I have a guest who is an expert in living without plastic. And I’m going to tell you about here in a few minutes. I’ll tell you about my plastic experience this morning.
I’ve been living without plastic since the 80’s. It was one of the first things that I identified as being toxic, and I set to remove it from my life. So I’m sure that my guest tonight will have plenty to talk about.
But this morning, I have a dear friend staying with me after being in the hospital. And at 4 o’clock this morning, we had to go back to the hospital. And as I was sitting there in the emergency room, they had put a plastic sheet.
They transferred him from the bed to the gurney to get him into the ambulance. They put him on a plastic sheet.
When I got him to the hospital, I was sitting next to the bed, and I could smell it. It smelled like PVC. And I thought, here I am in a hospital where people are supposed to be getting well, and they’ve got people lying on toxic plastic sheets.
The Center for Health, Environment & Justice talked about PVC being the most toxic plastic that there is.
And then, I went down to the cafeteria to have some breakfast, and all the food was being served on Styrofoam plastic plates and cups. I just looked around, there was no organic food.
And this is a hospital, again, where people are supposed to be regaining their health. And the entire place is full of plastic. The bag where the IV is dripping out is plastic.
And so we really do live in a plastic world now. And today, we’re going to talk about how we can eliminate plastics from our life.
My guest is Beth Terry. After learning about plastic pollution on the environment and human health in 2007, Beth began an experiment to see if she could live without buying any new plastic. And since then, she’s become plastic-free.
She has a blog called MyPlasticFreeLife.com, and also a book called Plastic-Free: How I Kicked the Plastic Habit and How You Can Too.
Welcome to Toxic Free Talk Radio, Beth.
BETH TERRY: Hi, Debra. Thanks so much for having me.
DEBRA: You’re welcome. I just want to start by saying that I love your book. There are some books that I read them and I go, “Dang, why didn’t I write that book?” because I’m so much in agreement with the depth of information and the practical suggestions and the easy format in which it’s written. I highly recommend it to everybody because it really goes through all these plastic things.
I mean, the website does this too. But the book is like a guidebook to what’s plastic and how you can get rid of it.
Kudos to you! You did a fabulous job.
BETH TERRY: Thank you so much.
DEBRA: You’re welcome. So tell us how you got into—what was that moment where you got interested in plastic?
BETH TERRY: I’ve discovered over the years—I started this in 2007. and I’ve talked to a lot of people since then who have found a different entryway into this topic. And for me, it originally started with animals because I’m a huge animal lover. I have cats, and I love just all sorts of animals.
One night, in June of 2007, I was sitting alone at my computer, and I stumbled across an article about the plastic pollution problem in the ocean which was bad enough. At that time, I didn’t know that plastic was a problem in the ocean. I had no idea.
DEBRA: Tell us more about it because I think that some of our listeners still don’t know.
BETH TERRY: Well, what we’re finding is that all the plastic waste that we generate, if it doesn’t make its way to where we intend to send it, if it doesn’t get recycled, or if it doesn’t make its way to a landfill, if it gets loose in the environment, eventually, it will make its way downstream, and end up in the ocean.
And the first area in the ocean that was discovered to be full of plastic is within the Pacific Ocean, the North Pacific Gyre, and it was discovered by a sea captain named Charlie Moore many years ago. But it’s only in the last few years it started to get real media attention.
And now, what researchers are finding is that it’s not just this one area of the ocean, but many areas of the ocean are full of plastic.
There are areas in the ocean called gyres where the currents swirl around. They collect the plastic, and they sort of trap it there.
And people may have heard the term, “Great Pacific Garbage Patch.” That’s what we’re talking about except it’s not like—people say it looks like a float. It’s like an island. It’s more like a plastic soup. And the plastic goes all throughout the water column. And the problem is that it gets mixed up with the plankton at the bottom of the food chain.
And then fish eat it, and bigger fish eat those, and so it gets passed up the food chain, actually, to us. And we’re finding a lot of food fish full of little plastic particles, which end up being pretty toxic because plastics in the ocean—they already contain their own toxic chemicals, and they also absorb toxic chemicals from the surrounding seawater.
And so the food fish that we’re eating are ending up with a lot of these toxic plastic pieces inside them.
DEBRA: And then, of course, those toxic pieces would end up in our own bodies. But if they’re accumulating in the fish bodies, they would accumulate in all bodies as well.
BETH TERRY: Exactly. Back in June of 2007, when I read this, what I saw that shocked me the most was a photo of a dead albatross chick, which is a bird that lives on Midway Island, which is halfway between the United States and Japan, thousands of miles from civilization. And this bird’s body was completely full of plastic because the mama birds were flying out over the ocean to gather food for their chicks, and they were mistaking plastic for food, and bringing it back, and feeding it to their babies.
And so that utterly stunned me, and that’s what made me decide I needed to change my life.
But then, as you know, and as you’ve known for years, it’s not just mama birds that are feeding plastic to babies.
The human mothers are feeding the chemicals in plastics to our children as well, every time we feed them out of plastic containers, every time we give them plastic or vinyl toys to play with. Everything that they’re surrounded with—things that off-gas, things that can leech into their food and water.
So it’s affecting all of us.
DEBRA: The reason that I knew this morning at the hospital that my friend was lying on a PVC plastic sheet was because I remembered that smell from many years ago when I opened a cookie can full of delicious imported, foreign [inaudible 00:09:28]. And they were packed in a PVC little, packing thing.
And the odor of PVC was so strong, when I opened that tin, I had to find out what it was. And once you know what it is, you never forget that smell.
It’s just everywhere. These plastics are everywhere.
So when we come back from the break, we’re going to find out more from Beth about what the plastics are, and we’ll discuss some of the health effects, and then later on, we’ll find out what to do about this.
We’re here with Beth Terry—author of Plastic-Free. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and you’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio.
DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and we’re here with Beth Terry—author of Plastic-Free, and also blogger at MyPlasticFreeLife.com, which is full of all kinds of tips and ways that you can eliminate plastic from your life. And the book itself is a really good guidebook to help you understand what the issue, and step by step, remove plastics from your life.
So Beth, what do you think is the number one plastic we should be concerned about?
BETH TERRY: Absolutely PVC, I think, is the most toxic.
DEBRA: I think so too.
BETH TERRY: I was really excited to see that you had Mike on last time because that organization has been so helpful in helping me understand the problems with PVC and what to do about it. And in fact, in one of the chapters of my book where I talk about deciding which plastics in your house to eliminate first, PVC is right up there.
And the Center for Health, Environment & Justice has a report where they say, instead of collecting your PVC and sending it to the landfill, take it to the hazardous waste facility.
And I actually did that.
DEBRA: Great. I love that. I love that because that’s where it belongs.
BETH TERRY: Yes, exactly. Of course, when you show up with your shower curtain, they might look at you funny.
But seriously, those things are full of all kinds of chemicals. They’re full of phthalates, they’re full of lead, heavy metals, all sorts of terrible stuff.
And so that’s what we did. We went through our house, and anything with that new shower curtain smell, that smell that you were talking about, we packed it up, anything with a #3 on it, which is PVC, and we just took it to the hazardous waste facility.
DEBRA: Wow. I think that that’s the thing to do.
BETH TERRY: So here’s the thing though. There are chemicals in plastics that we know for sure are hazardous.
So PVC is one of them. People have heard probably about bisphenol A, BPA, which is in some hard plastics like polycarbonates, and also lines the inside of metal food cans, and coats cash register receipts.
These are plastics that people are aware of.
But what most people don’t realize is that all plastics contain additives, and manufacturers aren’t required to disclose to us what any of their additives are because those formulas are proprietary. And some of the chemicals that are being used to replace BPA, and some of the chemicals of concern, may be just as hazardous for us.
There was a study that I talk about in my book, you may have mentioned this at some point, where they studied over 400 different plastic products—containers, wraps, and different kinds of items. And they tested them, they exposed them to human breast cancer cells, and 90% of the plastics, whether they had BPA in them or not, were found to be estrogenic, meaning, that they caused those breast cancer cells to grow.
And so the problem is that we aren’t told what all the additives are in various types of plastics.
So just looking at the number on the container doesn’t tell you if a plastic is safe or not, which is another reason why I’ve decided to limit my use of all plastics, not just PVC and ones with bisphenol A and other things like that.
DEBRA: Yes. Eliminate the use of all plastics as well. If I absolutely have to use a plastic, there are some that are less toxic than others. Here’s an example of one time where I decided to use a plastic. I got rid of my plastic shower curtain years ago, my PVC shower curtain.
I’ve moved several times, and each time I move, I install glass shower doors.
I think most people don’t know that you can go down to Lowe’s or Home Depot, and get glass shower doors for less than $100. And anyone with any kind of handyman skills can install them themselves. That’s my solution for plastic shower curtains.
But I was staying in a rented apartment, I rented furnished apartment, full of plastic, in San Francisco for three months. And it didn’t have a shower curtain. And I thought, “Oh, my god. Now, what am I going to do? I can’t go buy a plastic shower curtain.”
But it turned out that Ikea has shower curtains for just a couple of dollars that are made out of EVA, which is a plastic that is a lot less toxic than PVC.
And so if you have to have plastic for a waterproof layer or something, there are less toxic plastics.
BETH TERRY: There are.
DEBRA: My position is to eliminate them wherever I can.
BETH TERRY: Yes, and we can’t necessarily always eliminate every single thing. And so choosing the less toxic alternative is definitely better.
One thing that I stress in my book and on my site is not to try to do this all at once. I knew for myself that if I try to go through my house, get rid of every single plastic item, and just stop buying plastic, it wouldn’t work. I would give up in frustration.
And so I took it step by step.
So that is why I have questions for people that ask themselves to figure out what their priority should be, what their first step should be, and their second, and so on because it’s taken me years to get to this point where I am.
It’s taken you years to get where you are.
DEBRA: Yes, absolutely. It’s not an overnight thing. Because of my experience being made sick by toxic chemicals, I kind of went on a rampage. And one day, I just went through and took everything out of my house that I can identify as being toxic, which left me with an empty house.
And so it’s a very slow process to find the alternatives that were not toxic. But I found that even having done that, I still, as time goes by, I find out about more and more things, as there are more and more studies, and more and more information, and more and more new chemicals to be concerned about.
When I started doing this, nobody knew anything about BPA. Maybe it existed, but nobody knew about it.
So when we come back from the break, we’ll talk more about alternatives to plastic with Beth Terry—blogger at MyPlasticFreeLife.com, and author of Plastic-Free. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and this is Toxic Free Talk Radio.
DEBRA: We’re talking with Beth Terry, blogger at MyPlasticFreeLife.com and author of Plastic-Free.
Beth, I was just looking through your book at the break, and I found something that I didn’t know. Here’s a shocking fact from Beth’s book. Chewing gum is plastic. Do you want to tell us about that?
BETH TERRY: I am constantly discovering new things that are made of plastic that I had no idea about. And when I found that out, I was shocked too.
This is another example where manufacturers don’t necessarily have to tell you what’s in it. If you look at the ingredients of chewing gum, the part that’s chewy will just be called gum base, and gum base can be lots of different things. It could be natural rubber from a tree, but usually, it’s plastic, polyvinyl acetate.
Canada was considering actually banning that chemical.
Even some gums that advertise and sold as natural like Glee, which is made with natural [inaudible 00:19:06] from a tree, it’s combined with plastic in the gum. And the only way you find that out is by calling the company to ask.
They say that they’re looking for a more natural alternative, but as far as I know, they haven’t changed their formula yet.
There was one plastic-free gum that I found. It’s made in England, and it’s called Peppersmith. And the beautiful thing about it is that the gum itself doesn’t have plastic in it, but also, the packaging doesn’t have plastic in it.
DEBRA: In Europe, there were so many things that were ahead of the United States.
BETH TERRY: Yes, they are, in a lot of ways.
DEBRA: I also wanted to ask you about—I know that your book was specifically made to use minimal plastic. So tell us more about how—what did they do to use less plastic?
BETH TERRY: I didn’t even realize when I wrote the book that hardback books had plastic in them. It was my publisher, Skyhorse, that let me know that. And they decided, if they were going to publish this book called Plastic-Free, they were going to make the book itself without any plastic.
And so they found a plastic-free glue for the binding. They have no coating on the cover. It’s just plain board. And the jacket is plain craft paper.
On the book cover, minimal plastic was used in publishing this book, but I believe that there isn’t any plastic at all.
But my editor was concerned in case something turned up that he wasn’t aware of later. But as far as I know, there isn’t any plastic at all. So you do have to be careful.
DEBRA: Well, I just really like the way it looks. It’s not shiny and white. It looks like recycled paper. It’s got a nice gentle color to the paper that is easy on your eyes, and this nice, little cardboard, and nice brown—it’s just very simple and lovely.
What was the most difficult thing that you found that you tried to replace, and had difficulty with?
BETH TERRY: Well, some things I’ve had to learn to live without, and it’s actually been for the better. I used to live on frozen microwaveable meals in plastic. And of course, we know now, you should never ever microwave plastic or heat plastic. But that’s what I used to live on.
And also, energy bars in plastic wrappers.
And I did not want to have to change. I did not want to have to learn how to cook. I wanted to be able to continue heating up food in the microwave.
And so I went to the store, and I bought just about every brand of frozen dinner that’s imaginable whether it was Lean Cuisine, or whether it was Organic Amy’s or anything in between. I bought them all just so I could see what the packaging was inside.
When I found brands that came in a cardboard tray, I thought I was doing better until I learned that any cardboard that’s leak-proof is coated with plastic inside now.
DEBRA: Plastic is used ubiquitously to make things waterproof.
BETH TERRY: So milk cartons, ice cream cartons, coffee cups—all of these things have plastic in them as well.
And when it comes to coffee and things like that, these are hot liquids that are in contact with the plastic.
So I had to learn how to eat whole foods, and that was an added benefit of giving up plastic.
DEBRA: And isn’t that wonderful? Don’t you like it like that?
BETH TERRY: I do. I absolutely do. And it was not as hard as I thought it was going to be. I had this idea that I was going to be stuck in the kitchen forever and never doing anything else.
DEBRA: No, it isn’t that way. And I know—I love to eat, and I also love to cook. And I love to go out to eat. But at this point in my life, I rarely go out. I only go to restaurants that fix food from scratch, from organic ingredients because the restaurant industry, if you ever watch a show on TV like Diners, Drive-Ins, and Dives on the Food Channel?
I watch it just because it’s entertaining. If I can’t fall asleep at night, I’ll watch it. And it just horrifies me to see what they’re putting in their food. There’s sugar, they use just those big five-gallon white plastic buckets. And they put hot food in plastic. It just goes right into the food.
And most restaurants just don’t have a clue about all these plastic things. They actually put saran wrap, a plastic, on a dish, and then they’ll put it in the oven, and bake it in saran wrap.
BETH TERRY: And you know, what’s really sad is that schools do that too.
DEBRA: It just amazes me.
BETH TERRY: Yes, it’s awful. There’s a café down the street from me that I used to go to. Well, I still go to it. Their coffee is great and organic. You can even get organic milk in your coffee.
When I discovered how they make their tea, I stopped ordering tea there because they put it in plastic pitchers with the tea inside the plastic pitchers. Hot liquid. And I was just astounded by that.
DEBRA: I have, where I live, not too far away, there’s raw, organic, vegan café, and they serve their tea—if you order iced tea, it comes in this plastic tea maker that they say, “Here, let it sit here for five minutes. We’ll come back and tell you when it’s five minutes.”
And then you squeeze it, and the tea, the hot tea, comes out into a cup of ice and becomes iced tea. But it’s only after it’s absorbed those plastics from the container.
We just need to do more education, Beth, because there are all these well-meaning people who just don’t know these things about plastics.
BETH TERRY: So that’s why it was so important to me, as I blog, and also in this book, to include information about speaking up and talking to restaurant owners, store managers, asking for what we want, writing letters, because we need better choices. We can only do so as individuals.
DEBRA: We do. We’ll be back after this break with more with Beth Terry, who is a blogger at MyPlasticFreeLife.com, and author of the book, Plastic-Free. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and you’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio.
DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. My guest today is Beth Terry, blogger at MyPlasticFreeLife.com, and author of the book, Plastic-Free. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and this is Toxic Free Talk Radio.
Beth, let’s talk a bit about plastic package versus plastic products. And by that, I mean, I’m looking at products, I don’t want to use plastic products, but it’s so much harder to avoid products that might be organic, yet it’s packaged in plastic. So tell us about that.
BETH TERRY: Yes, so that’s so ironic to me. And a lot of times, I find that that’s the choice that we have to make. Organic food is grown without toxic chemicals, fertilizers and pesticides. And such care is taken to make sure that there are no hormone-disrupting chemicals in the food.
And then a lot of times, it’s packaged in plastic, which could be adding hormone-disrupting chemicals right back into the food. The packaging is actually an ingredient in the food.
And so I found lots and lots of way to buy foods without plastic packaging, without any packaging at all, a lot of times, by shopping the bulk bins, bringing my own bags and containers, glass jars with me, to shop the bulk bins.
Now, as I say in my book, and I have a whole section about bulk bins, and how to shop from them, how they’re cleaned and sanitized, but the truth is that sometimes, the food in the bulk bins themselves were delivered to the store in great, big plastic bags, so it’s not always plastic-free, but it’s less plastic.
DEBRA: I used to think if I bought a good in a glass jar that it was fine because it wasn’t in a BPA can. Well, actually, I made that decision a long time before there was BPA. I didn’t know about BPA in cans.
But I was at a farmer’s market one day, and somebody was selling pasta sauce. And I tasted the pasta sauce, and I was assuming that they were making it from fresh tomatoes. But I asked them, “Well, what about the tomatoes? What kind of tomatoes?”
And he very proudly said, “Oh, the finest Italian tomatoes from Italy.”
Yes, Italian tomatoes. And I thought, “Here’s BPA tomatoes in a glass jar.”
So you can’t always know that if it’s in a glass jar, those other ingredients haven’t been in plastic. Plastic is used in—
BETH TERRY: And the lids, the metal lids on glass jars, often contain BPA or some type of plastic inside the lid itself. But it’s a lot less plastic than if you were to buy a can that’s completely lined with plastic.
And so, I do still do that to some extent, but that’s why I feel like it’s so important to, whenever possible, look for whole, fresh foods from the farmer’s market because those things are not packaged at all, and you can see that they’re not packaged.
But I’m really glad that mentioned packaging as well because another issue about packaging and health is that even if the packaging isn’t actually touching our food, it’s still impacting us because anything that affects the environment is affecting our health. And all plastics are produced in petrochemical plants that give off toxic fumes, they pollute the water, they pollute the air.
People who live in communities where plastics are produced often have higher incidences of certain cancers or endometriosis, lots of different illnesses. And the more BPA, and the more toxic chemicals that are produced in this world, that go into the plastic packaging, even if that plastic packaging isn’t necessarily leeching into our particular food or item, it’s still contributing to pollution on our planet, and pollution that we breathe, and that we drink.
And so that’s why I feel like it’s so important to reduce plastic packaging. The most recent post on my blog is to Lotus Foods, the company that makes a stainless steel rice cooker, which we decided to get because we didn’t want to be eating out of an aluminum rice cooker anymore, or one coated with non-stick chemicals.
So we were so excited to get this stainless steel rice cooker. I opened up the box, and there was a huge chunk of Styrofoam in there, and everything was wrapped in plastic.
And so I wrote to them on my blog, and I said, “I really appreciate this product of yours. I appreciate how you’re trying to make us more healthy by giving us a stainless steel option, but these plastics and Styrofoam is actually #6 plastic. These plastics that you’re using for packaging are polluting our planet. Please switch to something safer.”
And someone from Lotus actually did respond in the comments. And so I’m hoping that writing that letter, that open letter on my blog, and that other people writing letters to companies, will help them realize that the packaging is just as important as the product that’s in the packaging.
DEBRA: Just as important. I agree with everything that you say. And all those toxic go into the environment do come back to us because we’re breathing the air, we’re drinking the water, we’re eating the food that is grown in contaminated soil. And we can’t think that the environment is separate from us and our health, and our well-being.
It’s all one system.
So every piece of plastic that we can not use goes a long way. And I think it’s really important to, as you just did with Lotus Foods, that when we find good products that we want to use, that we do write to the manufacturers and ask them about packaging.
One of the dilemmas that I’m going into about plastic packaging is, especially with healthcare products, personal care products, body care things, where they used to all be in glass, and now, they’re all in plastic, because glass breaks. When you take a bottle of shampoo in the shower, and what are you supposed to do?
Well, you and I know that the alternative is shampoo bars.
I’m not sure that shampoo bars work for everybody. I’m trying out a shampoo that’s just made from—it’s a really good shampoo, and it doesn’t have any, what I would call [inaudible 00:33:31] in it. It’s just made from all natural things. And it still comes in a plastic bottle.
And we need to be getting away from that. We need to be really as committed as you and I are. Everybody needs to do this. I didn’t come into being much until the mid-50s. And prior to that, everything everything was pretty much natural materials.
BETH TERRY: That’s one of the things that’s really important is to ask ourselves, how do we use to do things?
You can run into some issues though with getting things second hand. Buying things second hand is one of the things that I recommend in my book to avoid the packaging, to avoid new plastic. And yet, we still have to be careful with that too because there are issues of lead, for example, in some ceramic products that we might buy second hand.
So we have to ask ourselves if the newer things might actually be a little bit safer than the older things.
As you know, there’s a whole chapter in my book on personal care and cleaning, and lots of recipes, and lots of DIY. But sometimes people do have favorite products, one favorite personal care product or something that they just love, and it comes in plastic, and they don’t want to give it up.
So that’s another situation where you want to write to that manufacturer, tell them how much you appreciate what they’re doing, and ask them to change their packaging, and why. Explain why.
DEBRA: I know that on my website, on Debra’s List, where I’m recommending non-toxic products, I had to draw the line and say, I’m not going to be evaluating packaging, because if I were to eliminate every product that has a plastic package, there would be very few products left.
But I do make a note as best as I can if people and companies are using paper packaging instead of plastic, making a point to be plastic-free. Publicize that for them because it’s a really important thing. At this point, I don’t feel like I could eliminate everything that has a plastic package, but I agree that plastic packaging needs to go.
We just need to move away from these things.
BETH TERRY: Yes, and I feel like we just need to speak up because as long as companies don’t realize that this is an issue, or don’t realize that their customers care about it, they’re not going to make those changes.
Everybody has different priorities. For me, the plastic packaging is just as important as the product itself. But that’s my mission. That’s just what I decided what’s going to be the focus of my life. And there are lots and lots of other issues that other people have taken on.
So I do understand your decision about that, but the more we can at least—I don’t know. Let them know when they have a product that they want us to review, mention the packaging to them. Don’t just let it go because that’s the only way they’re going to realize that it’s important.
DEBRA: I totally agree with you. And in fact, I’m going to do that from now on. I am really going to be looking at the packaging. I’m not going to say that I can’t recommend a product if it has plastic packaging, but I’m going to mention to people about how they can be eliminating plastics.
This has been such a pleasure to talk to you, Beth. And I wish you all the best with everything that you’re doing.
BETH TERRY: Thank you so much.
DEBRA: And good luck to you too with your work because I think everybody should just listen to you and see what you say.
BETH TERRY: Thanks so much, Debra.
DEBRA: You’re welcome. This is Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd.
