Today my guest is Thea Maria Carlson, Director of Programs of the Biodynamic Association. We’ll be talking about the basics of biodynamics and how to find and choose biodynamic foods. Biodynamics is a spiritual-ethical-ecological approach to agriculture, food production and nutrition. It was first developed in the early 1920s based on the spiritual insights and practical suggestions of the Austrian writer, educator and social activist Dr. Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925). Today, the biodynamic movement encompasses thousands of successful gardens, farms, vineyards and agricultural operations of all kinds and sizes on all continents, in a wide variety of ecological and economic settings. Biodynamic farmers strive to create a diversified, balanced farm ecosystem that generates health and fertility as much as possible from within the farm itself. Biodynamic practitioners also recognize and strive to work in cooperation with the subtle influences of the wider cosmos on soil, plant and animal health. Thea is a farmer, organizer, educator, and artist with roots in California and the Midwest. She joined the Biodynamic Association while farming with Turtle Creek Gardens in 2011, and continued to balance both roles until she became Director of Programs in 2013. Her previous work includes teaching gardening, nutrition and beekeeping; developing community and educational gardens in California, Chicago and Maine; organizing strategic communications training programs for nonprofit leaders; and farming with Blue House Farm and Mendocino Organics. Thea earned a B.S. in Earth Systems from Stanford University, a permaculture design certificate from Occidental Arts and Ecology Center, and is trained in the Art of Hosting. www.biodynamics.com
TOXIC FREE TALK RADIO
Beyond Organic: How Biodynamic Agriculture Contributes to Good Health
Host: Debra Lynn Dadd
Guest: Thea Maria Carlson
Date of Broadcast: May 14, 2014
DEBRA: Hi, I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and this is Toxic Free Talk Radio, where we talk about how to thrive in a toxic world, and live toxic-free. It’s Wednesday, May 14, 2014, and it’s a beautiful, early summer day, late spring day, here in Clearwater, Florida.
I just want to say that to be toxic-free isn’t one, single thing. It’s a whole scale of things. You could start out being toxic on one end, and then you could move to using a less toxic product that’s still made from non-renewable petroleum, but it’s not harmful to health.
Then you could move into something made from renewable, natural material.
It keeps moving to practices more and more healthy, more and more sustainable, more and more natural, more and more in alignment with nature. And each time you take those steps in that direction, then you become more able to sustain health and sustain life because in order to sustain our health, we also have to sustain the life of the planet, the health of the planet.
And today, we’re going to be talking about one of those very top-of-the-chart practices that contributes to the sustainability of the planet, and contributes to our health. And that is biodynamics.
Biodynamic farming is a practice.
I’m going to let our guest explain about it. My guest is Thea Maria Carlson. She’s the Director of Programs of the Biodynamic Association.
Hi, Thea.
THEA MARIA CARLSON: Hi.
DEBRA: How are you?
THEA MARIA CARLSON: I’m good. It’s not quite as springy up here in Wisconsin, but we’re managing.
DEBRA: Good. First of all, explain what biodynamics is.
THEA MARIA CARLSON: Biodynamics is an approach to agriculture that treats the farm or garden as a living organism. So it’s really taking an opposite view to the mechanistic view that industrial agriculture takes, of the soil and plant just being this production machine where you put in a certain amount of input and you get the certain amount of production, as being all the soil, the plants, the animals, everything as working together as a living organism and trying to nurture and foster those life processes to create a healthy organism that then creates healthy food.
DEBRA: Good. And how did biodynamics originate?
THEA MARIA CARLSON: Biodynamics originated through the work of Rudolf Steiner, who was an Austrian philosopher, renaissance man. He did a lot of work in his life on a number of areas of society. He worked on education, medicine, the arts, architecture, and he also worked on agriculture.
He was approached by a number of farmers towards the end of his career who had known his work. They were noticing that the vitality and health of their land was decreasing as the use of chemical fertilizers was starting, and pesticides. As these various industrial agriculture practices were trying to take hold, they were starting to notice the decline in the health of their plants, animals and their lands.
And so they asked Rudolf Steiner for some guidance as to how they could renew the health of their farms.
And so Rudolf Steiner gave a series of lectures in 1924 to this group of farmers. And out of the various […] that he gave through his lectures, biodynamics, a form of agriculture, has developed and evolved over the past 90 years.
DEBRA: How did yourself get interested in this?
THEA MARIA CARLSON: Well, I became interested in food and sustainable agriculture while I was studying abroad in college. I was in Brazil, studying Amazonian Ecology and Natural Resource Management. I had been really focused on environmental conservation.
When I was in rainforest and saw the tension between growing food and saving the rainforest, I really wanted to understand how to grow food in a way that wasn’t depleting the land the way most of the agriculture has done around the world, including in the Amazon, and how to grow food in a regenerative way.
And so I looked for a farm to work on, and I ended up on a biodynamics farm. I wasn’t seeking it out, but it sort of found me.
DEBRA: So you now work for the Biodynamic Association, but are you currently farming?
THEA MARIA CARLSON: I’m not currently farming. So that first biodynamic farm I worked on, it was 11 years ago. And then I did work with full gardens and urban agriculture for a number of years. And then I was farming full time for a couple of years, and then started working part time for the Biodynamic Association, coordinating the Apprenticeship Program that the Association has.
And then as we’ve been developing more programs, I kept taking on more programs, and eventually, my position became full time. So I am now taking a break from farming. I have a garden in my yard, but I’m in the office full time.
DEBRA: I found biodynamics many, many years ago. And I first noticed it, I think, because I saw it on a label, a food product label, and I don’t remember what the food product was. But I have also been to Germany, and I had noticed that in Germany, a lot of food is grown biodynamically more than here in the United States.
So as we’re talking about this, I just wanted to make clear that we’re talking about not only a way of farming, but as consumers, we can look on the label, and find products. As we go through the show later on, I want us to talk about how people can find biodynamic foods to purchase—what to look for, where to look for that.
But first I want to just tell more about what biodynamics is.
I consider is to be a step-up from organic. Both organic and biodynamics don’t use pesticides. That’s a big thing that they have in common.
But start to tell us some stuff about biodynamics, so that people can understand why biodynamics would be more sustainable than simply organic.
THEA MARIA CARLSON: There’s a broad spectrum within organics, especially since the introduction of the USDA Organic Standard. There are certain things that organic guarantees; and other things it doesn’t.
So it guarantees you won’t have certain pesticides or fertilizers. But a lot of times, as there are more and more big industrial, organic farms, they’re basically substituting the less toxic, more naturally-derived inputs, but still putting in the farm in the same system. So they’re not necessarily building the health of the soil. They’re still feeding the plants.
One of the thing that’s unique about biodynamics—although there are certainly organic farms that do this as well—biodynamics integrate crops and livestock. So there’s a balancing of the nutrients on the farm.
So you’re neither importing a lot of fertilizers if you’re a plant-based farm or having to deal with a lot of manure waste like an animal-based farm would use. There’s a balancing, so that the manure of the animals is feeding the soil and providing nutrition for the plants. But you’re also, as much as possible, growing the feeds of the animals on the farm.
So, it creates more of a closed-loop system, which then can develop its own integrity and health on its own.
Biodynamic farms are also very diversified. There are a number of organic farms that are diversified. But also I’ve been to Southern California and seen acres, and acres and acres of carrots, organic-grown carrots that you could get all over the country. So there’s nothing in the organic standard that says you can’t just have a mono-culture of one crop where biodynamic farming—go ahead.
DEBRA: I think that’s a really big, important distinction for us to talk about, is that system of monocropping versus having a whole system. And so you said earlier, you can grow organic, but you’re still feeding the plants, and not feeding the soil.
We need to take a break in a few seconds here. And when we come back, I’d like us to talk about that particular difference because I think it’s a really, really big one, and of course, talking about animals and plants being in a symbiotic relationship with each other. Well, that’s the way it is in nature.
And we’ll talk about that when we come back.
You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and my guest today is Thea Maria Carlson. She’s a the Director of Programs at the Biodynamic Association, and we’re learning about biodynamic farming and gardening, and how you can eat biodynamic food.
We’ll be right back.
DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and my guest today is Thea Maria Carlson. She’s with the Biodynamic Association, and we’re talking about biodynamic farming and gardening.
So Thea, just compare the two, what is it like to be on an organic farm that’s monocropping versus the diversity that happens in a biodynamic farm.
THEA MARIA CARLSON: I think something that a lot of people who visit biodynamic farms notice is something that’s a little hard to put your finger on, but it’s a kind of vitality that I think comes from that diversity, but also from some of the other biodynamic practices.
So it’s just a sense of vibrancy and health within. Biodynamic farms really do focus on diversity. That doesn’t mean that they can’t have a specific crop that they focus on. There are some biodynamic farms that mainly have vegetables, but they’ll also have […] that will compliment and balance that out.
There are other biodynamic farms that might focus on meat production. There’s diversity both of the crops that are grown for food, but also including areas for wildlife and natural predators […]
So when you set foot on a biodynamic farm, you’ll probably see a lot more different species of plants and animals than you might see on a farm that’s not biodynamic.
DEBRA: On a biodynamic farm, tell us what some of the practices are. I know that there are different things like using different kinds of fertilizers or things like that. I have nothing against organic. I think that organic is a wonderful thing, so I’m not trying to make it sound like organic isn’t a good thing to do.
It’s certainly better than spraying pesticides and artificial fertilizers and just completely destroying the soil.
But this is a step beyond that because it’s a whole different way of thinking.
So can you tell us more about the general viewpoint that would be different?
THEA MARIA CARLSON: So as I mentioned before, there’s a view of the farm as a living organism, so really trying to nurture the health of the whole organism, and through that, having the products that you’re producing be as healthy as possible.
There is an emphasis on building the health of the soil using compost and manure and cover crops, and compost to plant matter as well. Focusing on those for fertility rather than just putting on mineral fertilizers. There are a lot of organic mineral-based fertilizers that don’t have the whole living composted elements to them.
In addition to that, there are some preparations that are used in more medicinal qualities. There are six preparations that are added to the compost pile to add specific properties to that. And they are each made with different medicinal herbs that
some people might be familiar with like chamomile, yarrow, dandelion. Each of them adds a different energy and work with different micronutrients within the compost pile.
So, each of those is added in homeopathic quantities to the compost pile. And then through the compost, it’s spread over the land.
There’s also a couple of […] preparations that are used on the soil and the plants. There’s a corn manure preparation. That is one of the things that people tend to hear about when they hear about biodynamic farming. So there’s manure of cows that is buried in the cow farm in the fall, and then dug up in the spring. And then that’s diluted with water and stirred rhythmically, and then sprayed on the soil usually in the spring (but it can be other times). And that really helps to bring about more life in the soil and support the fertility of the soil.
So it’s not a fertilizer in the sense that there’s not a large, actual quantity of nutrients in it. But it’s more like an energetic, homeopathic way to encourage balance of the soil.
That works with the earth and the water elements. And then there’s a polarity to that. There’s […] the summer months and […] crystals. And that is sprayed in the air over the plants. And that helps bring in warmth and light […] of the plants.
DEBRA: What’s so interesting to me, I just have a personal interest in nature, and this is part of why I was so interested in biodynamics when I found it, or even found it, is because many years ago, I just looked around at our industrial culture, and I said, “Wait a minute. There’s something wrong here.”
And I thought, “Where is life actually flourishing?”
And I said, “Oh, I need to look to nature and see what nature is doing.”
And one of the things about biodynamics is that, and this for me, is one of the differences I see between organic and biodynamic, we’ve said this but I want to say it in a different way, organic really is taking the industrial model and seeing how to make it natural. It’s natural industrial that there’s still this thought that you have to kill the insects. And so there are natural pesticides.
There’s still the thought that there has to be a fertilizer. And so there’s a natural fertilizer.;
But it’s all still about industrial inputs into an industrial agribusiness.
And I’m not saying that every organic farmer is like this. As Thea said earlier, there’s a wide spectrum of organic farmers, everything from huge agribusiness organic, to small family farmers, to community-supported agriculture and things like that.
But it’s all based on our modern industrial model of having to have there be a fertilizer, having to have them be a pesticide and what are the acceptable ones to use that aren’t synthetic, that aren’t harmful.
Biodynamic is a completely different thing because it’s looking to see what nature is doing.
And so, as Thea is talking, she’s talking about not going to the store and buying manure in a bag. She’s talking about this farm takes the materials that are on the farm and doing these things.
I’m not saying they never buy anything, but I’m saying that the whole idea is that this is creating an ecosystem, and the food products being part of that ecosystem, which is just so, so different.
And I’m making a big deal out of this because this is the change we all need to go to, is to see ourselves as part of that ecosystem.
We’ll be right back. We’re going to go to break. You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and my guest today is Thea Maria Carlson from the Biodynamic Association, and stay with us.
Thea, I want to tell you that one of my favorite parts of biodynamics is the Stella Natura calendar. I have years of Stella Natura calendar sitting on my shelf because not only is biodynamics about awareness of our relationship to the natural world, but also about our relationship to the cosmos and recognizing things like the planets, the sun, the moon and everything.
It’s all affecting life on earth. And the Stella Natural calendar, the subtitle is Inspiration and Practical Advice for Gardeners, Working with Cosmic Rhythms.
And there are rhythms in the universe.
I think it’s a big stretch to think of ourselves as being part of this big environment of the earth, and even a bigger stretch to think of our earth as being part of the cosmos. But that’s how it is. That’s nature. It includes all of those things.
I just think it’s wonderful that biodynamics includes all of them too.
So if you go to Biodynamics.com, look for the tab about books and calendars, and take a look at the planting calendars because they’re very interesting. They have a lot of articles in them about gardening from month to month. And it just gives you a different perspective about life on earth. That’s a very interesting thing.
So you have a conference coming up. You want to tell us about that?
THEA MARIA CARLSON: Yes. We have a conference. Every other year, we hold a North American Biodynamic Conference. This is the year.
And this year, our conference theme will be farming for health. So it’s really taking up this question of how does farming, how can farming really foster the health of the land, the soil, the plants, the animals and the people.
And so we’re bringing together over 60 presenters who are going to be talking about all different aspects of this from how do we bring health and flavor to fruits to how do we really work with the health of livestock, how can we integrate livestock and different types of plant species, looking at the sources of healing in plants and the medicinal qualities of the biodynamic preparations I mentioned earlier, and looking at how those herbs can be helpful to human health, looking at compost and really what can bring high quality compost (not all compost is created the same) and dozens of other topics.
So it’s really a great opportunity to learn a lot more about these topics, whether someone is already farming, whether someone is a gardener, whether you’re just someone who’s interested in food and health and want to dig into these questions of what health really means, what is food quality really means, how can we go beyond just the macronutrients and the levels of vitamin C to what’s really going to give you something that’s going to nourish you and nourish your family.
DEBRA: As I’m listening to you, and I have the website up in front of me, I was considering this whole topic of farming for health. I don’t think I’ve ever heard that phrase before. Those two words are not usually in the same sentence.
There’s farming and then there’s health. And the farmers do what the farmers do, and then the consumers buy whatever is on the shelf. And then we go to the doctor, and the doctor is about health.
But the doctor is really not about health. The doctor is about handling the malfunctions of the body that come from not being aware of all of these other things.
And so this whole idea of food actually contributing to health, it’s not such a strange idea, but as you were talking, I was getting it in a different way because I think that a lot of people know that you need to eat the right foods in order to be healthy.
But if we stop and look at what is it that we’re eating, the vitality of the food, like I’m always going back to nature. If I was just in nature, if we didn’t have an industrial system, then what would I be eating, and I’d be out in the forest eating fruits and nuts and these kinds of things. But they would have an aliveness to them.
And if we just look at that aliveness quality, if somebody has grown something in their backyard and you go out to your backyard, and you pick that tomato off the vine, and it’s alive. But what we buy in the supermarket, whether it’s organic or not, is not so fresh, that nutrients and vitality are much lessened.
If we then take those ingredients and process them, and put it through a factory and have processed food, it’s even less vital.
And I think one of the lessons of biodynamics is that there is a vitality and an aliveness that really does contribute to health.
And that’s what’s missing from most of the food. We can get nutrients, but if we’re missing that aliveness of something, we’re not taking alive food and put it in our bodies, to make our bodies more alive.
Did I get that right?
And I think that that’s probably going to be a lot of what people are talking about at this conference. And that’s part of, as I said, what sets biodynamics apart for me because they’re really talking about how can we have this whole system of life be alive and thriving, and that includes all of us. I so admire biodynamics.
THEA MARIA CARLSON: One of our programs is a research program. And what we’re really working on right now is a pilot project for developing quality testing and quality research on farming methods.
So, even though you’re saying that […] you picked in the backyard is different from the tomato you buy at the supermarket, it’s different from tomatoes that’s canned, a lot of the traditional scientific analyses of the nutrition content and quality of those to say, “Oh, they’re all the same. There’s no difference.”
And so a lot of what biodynamics brings to the table and what we’re really trying to continue to develop through our research program is developing and utilizing ways that can detect those qualitative differences between those different kinds of foods that you can sense through your taste buds, and even using your taste buds as a qualitative analysis in a way.
DEBRA: Also, I find that food feels different to me in my body. Different qualities of foods will feel different. I will have a different kind of aliveness in my body depending on what I’ve eaten. It is an energetic thing. The food gives you energy that is beyond calories.
So we’re going to take another break, and when we come back, we’re going to talk about how people can find biodynamic food to purchase, and how they can find a local biodynamic farmer because once you taste this food, and feel this food, you’ll see a difference.
You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and my guest today is Thea Maria Carlson from the Biodynamic Association. And that’s at Biodynamics.com, lots of information on this website.
We’ll be right back.
So let’s talk about if you want to eat biodynamic food, how to find it. And so the first thing I think people should know about that is the Demeter Association. So tell us about that.
THEA MARIA CARLSON: The Demeter Association is the organization that certifies biodynamic farms and biodynamic products in the United States. It’s actually an international association. So there’s a Demeter International and then chapters in each country where there’s biodynamic certifications.
So, there’s an international agreement on the standards for certification. Farms can be certified, and then a specific products can be certified biodynamic as well.
In the United States, the UCSA Organic Standard is the baseline for Demeter Certification. So any farm that is certified biodynamic has also met the requirements for being certified organic. But then there are additional requirements for being Demeter-certified.
Some of the things they talked about, including crops and livestock, including wild areas, balancing the different parts of the farm, working with the preparations and things like that.
DEBRA: Actually, I was just looking at this page. I just clicked away from it. There are two certifications. There’s the Demeter Association, and then there’s the Stellar—I’m looking at a very tiny little thing, the Stellar Association. What’s the difference between these two?
THEA MARIA CARLSON: I believe that the Stellar Certification Service, they work with organic certification. So they can wrap together. If the farm wants to be certified organic and biodynamic, Stellar can do both for them.
But Demeter is the only organization that has the ability to certify a farmer or product biodynamic.
DEBRA: Good. And I know Demeter, it originated in Germany. It’s been around for a long time, even though it’s more recent here in America.
The Demeter Association, I was trying to find online a list of biodynamic foods and maybe there is one and I didn’t find it, but I am on the Demeter Association site, and that’s D-E-M-E-T-E-R hyphen USA dot org. Demeter-USA.org.
And they say, “Coming soon, a director of biodynamic farms and biodynamic products.”
But even on the page, there’s a slider which shows different brands that have biodynamic foods in them like wheat organic, biodynamic pasta. The Republic of Tea has some tea and herbs that are biodynamically grown now. Here’s Crofter’s Blueberries.
When you go to a natural food store and you see biodynamic on the label, then you know what that is.
You could also, if you’re looking for biodynamic cherries or whatever, you can just type in “biodynamic” and whatever it is that you’re looking for into your favorite search engine, and the brands of products or the biodynamic farms will come up.
And so if you’re looking for things that are organic, instead of just typing in “organic fruit,” looking for some place that sells organic online, you could also type in, “biodynamic” whatever, and you’ll get a biodynamic quality product as well.
I think that organic is getting to be very well-known and that people just type in organic this, organic that. But remember that biodynamic exists.
Search it out and see, if you see the difference, it’s a very interesting thing.
Well, we’ve got about five or six minutes left. The hour goes by so fast, and there’s always so much to talk about. Is there anything that you want to talk about that we haven’t covered?
THEA MARIA CARLSON: I would say if people are interested in learning more about biodynamic [interventions], on our website, we do have a number of resources, educational resources. We have a monthly e-newsletter. There’s a calendar of events if you’re interested in learning more about it. There are different events happening all over the country. And then there’s our conference on November 13th to 15th in Louisville, Kentucky.
We also are supported by members. And so if you like what you hear about biodynamics, and you’d like to support it, you can become a member of the association. We have a journal that comes out [twice] a year where you can get more in-depth articles. And then, you’re also helping us do more education, community building and research to keep growing the biodynamic movement in the United States and North America.
DEBRA: I think that’s a really important thing to support. And I support it by buying my calendar. Tiny support.
One of the things that has struck me recently, back on Earth Day, I did a show about Rachel Carson, who wrote Silent Spring. And that was such an important breakthrough book about toxics. And yet, I was very excitedly going around and talking to people, even people that I know in my circle.
I was saying, “I’m doing this show on Rachel Carson. I’m doing a show on Rachel Carson. Her biographer is going to be on and the former head of the Rachel Carson Institute.”
And they’re looking at me blankly like, “Who is Rachel Carson? I’ve never heard of this person.”
Also, even, again, in the circle of people that I know, they wouldn’t know who Rudolf Steiner is. People don’t know who Henry David Thoreau is.
I’m sorry listeners, if you’re listening and don’t know who these people are. All these people have done very important things. Rudolf Steiner had a magnificent viewpoint about our relationship as human beings in nature.
Henry David Thoreau, way back at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, he said, “I’m going to go live out by the edge of a lake.” And he wrote a whole book called Walden, about his experiment living in nature rather than living in the industrial society which was encroaching his home in Concord, Massachusetts at that time.
And there are all these ideas, all these ways of thinking and knowing that are just disappearing because people don’t talk about them.
I think that these are the exact ideas that we should be basing our future on, in my opinion, that we should not be forgetting them, that we should be working on them, we should be taking these ideas and doing as you’re doing, to be using them in the world, and teaching them to people, and studying and exploring them, and moving them forward.
And I can’t tell you how much I appreciate what you’re doing because we need to not lose this. We need to expand it.
THEA MARIA CARLSON: Yes, and there are so many people who are now interested in it. And so it’s great because more and more people are waking up and saying, “I want to learn more about this. I want to do something about this.”
So there’s a building movement and it’s a great time to get involved with this.
DEBRA: I think so. It’s very encouraging to me to see over the years that I’ve been studying these things personally, to see the things that I found out about 20 or 30 years ago are now getting much more popular, and much more known, and are starting to become part of our culture.
So this is very, very good. Very good.
What else is on your website that we could talk about? I’m sitting right here.
So tell us about some of your programs that people might be interested in.
THEA MARIA CARLSON: So our main programs, we have an education program. We have a research program. And then we do community building.
I started out working mainly in education, and then my work has expanded to the other programs. We have a farmer training program, which is a two-year program that combines on-farm training with classroom studies.
We have about 45 mentor farms in the United States and Canada. And right now, just about 40 apprentices are enrolled in that program. So that’s a great thing for people who are really wanting to become the next generation of biodynamic farmers. It’s our core education program.
We also have a group of farm-based educators that we work with. So they’re working with kids on farms, helping them to nature and understand how life works and get connected to their food. And so we have a learning community of folks who are working specifically with children and youths on farms.
Our research program, as I’ve mentioned before, we’ve been working to support the development of a qualitative testing network and research projects that will work with farmers using different biodynamic, organic, conventional practices, looking at really how the different farming practices affect the quality of food, and looking at the quality from a lot of different angles.
We have our conferences every other year. And that moves around the country. So we try to move to a different [region] each time. And then we have regional events as well. We did one in California this January, a one-day […] Ecological
Farming Conference that happens there every year.
Then we have the journals that I mentioned where we publish articles and different research, and the monthly e-newsletter.
We also have a directory for our members which includes individual listing, so people can find each other if you have similar interests in biodynamic bee-keeping, fruit-growing, or whatever. There are also farms and businesses which are listed in that directory as well.
And we also have a number of forums on our website for people to post or find internships and apprenticeship listings, job opportunities, land-sharing opportunities, or just to post topics really that’s biodynamic.
DEBRA: I see all these as you’re talking about those. And this is just great. This is great. I just really encourage everybody who’s listening to go to the website, Biodynamics.com and take a look at this.
Thanks so much for being with me. This is Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. Be well.
