My guest today is Heidi Sanner, Founder of Prima Natural. She makes a premium, truly natural soap free of irritating residues. Raw ingredients are combined using a unique trade secret process. We’ll be talking about conventional soaps and cleansers, the soap industry, the misconceptions consumers are under and how Prima Natural is different. Heidi has a Bachelor of Science degree in Medical Technology with an internship at a Veteran’s Hospital where she cultured all types of skin ailments known to man…and a few unidentified ones. She left the medical field for a “more normal” type of work as a CPA. After seven years she left to start an Organic Farm business, Candle Bee Farm, an organic beekeeping and beeswax candle business. And 10 years later started, Prima Natural. www.debralynndadd.com/debras-list/prima-natural
TOXIC FREE TALK RADIO
An All Natural Soap that Leaves Your Skin Clean and Free of Irritating Residue
Host: Debra Lynn Dadd
Guest: Heidi Sanner
Date of Broadcast: February 17, 2014
DEBRA: Hi, I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. And this is Toxic Free Talk Radio where we talk about how to thrive in a toxic world.
I’m feeling great today because I have been spending the last two weeks—and even longer, it’s actually been kind of a two month process of redoing my website. And I finally, finally get it done enough that I could make it go live at the end of last week. And so I’ve been spending the weekend resting after working from six in the morning until eleven at night on this website. It’s really beautiful. Everybody loves it. I’m getting so many emails from people who really love the way it looks and how easy it is to use. And it’s much easier for me, so there can be a lot of new content and a lot of different ways to organize things and make it easier to find things. There’s just going to be a big change in my website. I mean, there already is, but coming up, there’s going to be a lot more information. And I’m so excited about it.
So today, we’re going to be talking about soap. And my guest knows a lot about what’s going on in soap products, the regular commercial soap products (she also makes her own). And so she’ll be telling us about that.
Her name is Heidi Sanner. She’s the founder of Prima Natural. And she makes a soap that is unlike any other soap. I’ve been using it, and it really is unlike any other soap. It does not leave a residue, an irritating residue, on your skin. And so you feel really clean.
This morning, I thought, “You know, I should try this on my hair.” I have washed my hair with a lot of shampoos in bottles that just strips your hair. And then, I tried washing my hair with various shampoo bars which I liked more or less. But this morning, I washed my hair with Heidi’s soap. And I don’t have any of that soap residue that always stay on my hair from those shampoo bars.
So, I’m pretty happy with this. And we’ll talk to Heidi. Hi Heidi!
HEIDI SANNER: Hi Debra. Good to be with you.
DEBRA: Thank you. How are you today?
HEIDI SANNER: I’m doing great!
DEBRA: Good! Well, Heidi has been on the show before, so we’ve heard something of her story. But why don’t you tell us the path to Prima Natural. You started out being a medical technologist and got from there to where you are today. How did that happen?
HEIDI SANNER: Well, today, I’m an organic farmer. As you know, I started a candle bee farm I guess in 2002. And working on the farm with extremely sensitive skin was just insane!
In the summer, I was fully of rashes and ticks from the heat and the dirt. And in the winter, my skin was just tapped and dry and actually bleeding.
I took clues from nature. It occurred to me that humans are the only ones with this problem. Maybe it’s how we care for our skin. So I used my medical technology and laboratory background, that experience, and also my European background. The Europeans are far ahead of us in skincare products and use some natural products honestly.
When I grew up over there, it was tremendous! Their skin is beautiful. We hold up the Swiss. A picture of a Swiss woman is the epitome of perfect, beautiful skin—or the Polynesians, for example—that we just don’t have back here.
So, I used what I had on hand, the natural products, and made my own soap. It was two years in the making. I came up finally with the perfect formulation. I can effectively clean the toughest farm dirt and grease, and yet leave the skin supple and soft without the need for lotion and masking, clogging products that don’t allow your skin to function as nature intended.
Today, I’m 53 years old. I haven’t put any lotion or products of any kind on my skin for four years, and I have beautiful skin. And that’s the topic of the emails that I receive. It’s been proven by many people that it’s working.
DEBRA: Well, that makes sense to me. I’m very much one who thinks that we can find our answers in nature because nature has provided for us to be healthy and to have our bodies function right. We’re beings of nature in that regard. And so when I look at all the different things that our industrial consumer society has come up with for us to put on or in our bodies, and then I look at what nature provides, there’s a huge difference.
And knowing something about all the toxic chemicals that are in personal care products and soap—
Are you still there?
HEIDI SANNER: Yeah, I’m here.
DEBRA: Okay, I just heard some crackling and I just wanted to make sure. I wasn’t sure if the line went down.
So knowing all the toxic chemicals are in there and what toxic chemicals can do and other things in our modern lifestyle, it seems like the closer that we can get to nature and have nature nourish our skin and handle our skin in a natural way, that we’ll be better off.
And I see that you are proving that over and over with yourself and your customers.
So, you decided to be a soap maker because you needed soap for yourself. So, can you tell us something about the process that you went through? What’s it like to develop a product that you decide that you’re going to make something, and then going through those kinds of trials?
HEIDI SANNER: Well, it’s a lot of science, a little bit of naiveté and a little bit of luck. Actually, the process we use is unlike any other. It is trade secret. It’s the only soap that really is cold-processed.
Most conventional manufacturers [throw them] in a big pot, heat it up, boil all the beneficial qualities out of every ingredient in there, mash it together, and there you have a bar of soap. That can go from start to finish onto the shelf within two hours. And that’s the reason for it.
I use a very slow method, a very cold method. And all of the natural ingredients in raw goat milk are preserved—and raw honey as well.
It’s important to understand that most soaps—like goat milk soaps, for example—don’t even have any goat milk in them. They have goat milk powder combined/constituted with water. Even the goat milk farms are making it that way.
So, I set out to make this real goat milk which everyone said cannot be done because of the fat content. Again, I just kept at it, it took two years, and produced Prima Natural. And that is why it is so different; it is actually made different. And even the large soap manufacturers are interested at this point and can’t figure out how I’m making it.
DEBRA: Well, I’m so glad that you came up with that. I can understand how that process might work because I come up with recipes for making different food dishes that I like. And instead of making things like cake, for example, out of sugar and flour, I had to figure out how to make something that resembled the dessert out of other ingredients like almond flour and coconut sugar and things like that which have different properties and they require different methods.
But what I found was that there are different methods. You can decide to take ingredients and figure out a process that will end up making what you want. And it may be something very different than what’s being sold in a store.
But I always find that when I actually make something that ends up working, it’s much better! It’s much better. It often tastes better or functions better. In your case, I really enjoy using your soap. And it really does a much, much better job than other soaps.
HEIDI SANNER: Yeah, it’s a feeling. It’s a “clean” that’s impossible to describe.
DEBRA: I would agree with that.
HEIDI SANNER: I can’t describe to you a color you’ve never seen. I can’t describe to you a feeling you’ve never felt. And this is really that different. All the proteins and minerals and the enzymes remain. And their beneficial qualities remain.
DEBRA: And that’s something that I’ve never seen in another soap. Usually, they make soap and then they put additives in it.
But this has the nutrients coming from it from the actual soap through and through.
HEIDI SANNER: Yeah, yeah.
DEBRA: Well, we need to take a break, and then we’ll talk more after the break. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. This is Toxic Free Talk Radio. My guest today is Heidi Sanner. We’re talking about her wonderful Prima Natural soap. And when we come back from the break, we’re going to talk about some of the toxic things and things that you probably don’t know about soap and cleansers that are on the market. We’ll be right back.
DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. My guest today is Heidi Sanner, founder of Prima Natural. And that’s at PrimaNatural.com. And you can also find Prima Natural on my website on my list of websites that sell toxic-free products, Debra’s List. She’s listed. You can find her there and on her own website at PrimaNatural.com.
Heidi, I know you’ve done a lot of research about all the different kinds of soaps and cleansers and what’s going on in the marketplace. There are so many so-called natural soaps and cleansers on the market. Can we trust the labels? And what about the integrity of the ingredients? And are there any legal regulations about soaps specifically?
HEIDI SANNER: Oh, this was a real eye-opener when I went into this field. The cosmetics and the pharmaceutical industries are regulated. But there are no FDA regulation over skin cleansers and soap manufacturers—none! In fact, a product labeled as a soap does not have to list any ingredients at all on the label.
So, what happens is the soap makers pick and choose what they want to put on the label. And many of the so-called natural soaps might have one natural ingredient or one synthetically made essence of something that was once natural, and they can call themselves a natural soap […]
Prima Naturals has every ingredient on the label. And I often get questions about that, but I prefer to do that because then I have nothing to defend now or in the future when, hopefully, these regulations change.
But right now, yeah, it’s scary. People think they’re buying something, and they’re not.
Even unscented soaps, you got to think for yourself a little bit here. Everything has a scent. Everything has a smell. If you have let’s say an olive oil soap or a goat milk soap, would you like to smell like a goat? Everything has a scent. So to think of an unscented soap, there’s really no such thing. What they do is they put in a masking chemical agent that masks or hide the smell of the ingredients and calls it unscented.
So, people think they’re buying an unscented, purer natural soap. But actually, they’re buying a soap with a chemical masking agent in it. I get emails from sensitive people. And I have allergies and sensitivities mostly due from vaccinations of going back and forth to Europe probably as a child.
But Prima Natural is formulated with a natural scent, a natural smell. No one wants to smell like a goat, and I have real goat milk in that soap. If I didn’t, we wouldn’t have to worry about it.
Now, for me to make an unscented soap, I would need a masking agent because, think about it, everything smells like something. If I make olive oil soap, you would smell olive oil. And that would smell rancid after a while. So, that’s one of the fallacies.
We have stopped thinking for ourselves. We’re lulled into the romanticism of these labels and taking what marketers are saying and not thinking, “Hey, wait a minute! This has coconut oil in it. Why doesn’t it smell like coconut? What’s going on here?” It’s upsetting, very disturbing.
Most recently—and I’ll throw this in also—the Natural Resources Defense Council has sued against the FDA. This has been 20 years in the making about antibacterial soap. And what’s in there—the hexachlorophene, the triclosan—these antibacterial soap, again, we are told that we need to [sift] our skin, we need to be antibacterial; and actually, nothing can be further from the truth. What they’re producing is antibiotic-resistant bacteria. It’s been proven that these agents, these chemicals in these soaps affect hormones. They affect muscle function. It’s just really dangerous stuff.
So, just in December, they actually won that lawsuit. And the FDA has been rewriting regulations that antibacterial soap will either have to be taken off the market or reformulated by the year 2016. But we haven’t heard much about that, have we?
DEBRA: No, I haven’t heard about it.
HEIDI SANNER: Look it up! It’s on the web, but you really have to look for it. They just signed that I think in November or December of last year.
Progress is slow and hard. And the public has no idea this is going on. They have no idea what they’re seeing and not seeing on these labels.
DEBRA: Well, labeling really is a problem throughout the entire industry. Every type of product has different labeling laws.
They’re regulated by different agencies. And I actually thought soap fell under the cosmetic laws, but…
HEIDI SANNER: No, it does not.
DEBRA: Yeah! Well, that’s very good to know. A soap manufacturer doesn’t have to put anything on the label or be accurate about it or—wow! That is a really scary thing because…
HEIDI SANNER: It blows you away, doesn’t it?
DEBRA: Well, it does. This is true across all kinds of labeling. Cleaning products are extremely toxic. It seems like the more toxic it is, the less regulation there is about labeling. I personally have been saying for years and years and years that what we need to do is have full disclosure of everything on the label. And that way, we can then make decisions as consumers. And we can’t make decisions that are based on the truth unless the truth is on the label.
HEIDI SANNER: Right! The only thing I can encourage is when you read a label, stop and think. There are even so-called goat farmers out there making pure goat milk soap from their own farm. The whole story is very romantic. It’s very beautiful.
And then, I read down further and it says, “cotton candy scented,” “lemon scented.” Well, I have a hard time believing that they’re putting cotton candy into the soap and making it smell that way.
DEBRA: No, they’re not. I’m sure.
HEIDI SANNER: There’s got to be a synthetic chemical. And how the heck do you get lemon scent into the soap?
DEBRA: No, it’s a synthetic scent. It’s a synthetic scent.
HEIDI SANNER: We don’t stop and think because we’re lured into this beautiful marketing wording and the story.
DEBRA: Yes, yes. We need to go to break, but I just want to throw in here for a second that I was on a website yesterday that claimed to make this product they were making and they were all green and that all their products on their website were green.
I then found out that only like 5% of them were. They were totally misleading.
Anyway, we’re going to go to break. Toxic Free Talk Radio, I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. My guest today is Heidi Sanner, founder of Prima Natural, PrimaNatural.com. And we’ll be right back.
DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. My guest today is Heidi Sanner, founder of Prima Natural. She makes a premium, truly natural soap free of irritating residues. So we’ve been talking about her soap and some of the things that she’s learned about the soap industry.
Heidi, during the break, I just got this flashback to when I was a teenager and I had skin problems. I had really, really bad acne.
So, there were all these things. I went to the doctor, I took tetracycline and blah-blah-blah. But I’m sure it was all the toxic chemicals and the stuff I was eating.
But I remember, I got this picture of going to a fancy department store and going to the counter of a famous skincare brand, and all the things that they gave me—like five or six different products—to do this whole skincare regimen morning and night.
And the thing that really stood out for me is that I remember part of the program was this pink lotion that was some kind of cleanser. I put it on with a little brush. It was bright pink. And it actually made my skin burn. Every time I put it on, my skin burned.
And this is what passes for skincare. And this is what we think is normal in this culture. I mean, it’s not just one brand. This is how most of the skincare brands are.
So, tell us what you’ve learned about what modern marketing has us believe and think about our skin and what we need.
HEIDI SANNER: Been there, done that. I’m right with you. Same here! I tried everything, even prescription, and nothing! In fact, what I learned was the more I did for myself, the worst it got.
DEBRA: Me too!
HEIDI SANNER: What does that tell you? That’s when you back up and go, “Whoa! Wait a minute here. The more I’m putting on, the more I’m trying, the worse this is getting.”
We are being led to believe by modern marketing and even dermatology that healthy skin requires dripping clean, removing everything, and then cover it back up with lotions and oils and protectants… or you’re going to die.
DEBRA: Well, that really is it! That is what those skin care programs do.
HEIDI SANNER: You’re just going to melt right off your body if you don’t have all these oils and stuff to protect it.
Skin is perfect as it is. It has to be allowed to function. It has to be allowed to, what I call, breathe. It has to expel sweat; and through that, you’re expelling toxins. And that cooling moisture keeps you cool in the summer.
Now, if you go slathering oils on top of that, you might as well wrap yourself in saran wrap. You think about sweat and bacteria underneath a layer of lotion and oils—I mean, the thought of it still makes me ill to think about it.
DEBRA: My skin is falling as you’re talking about it.
HEIDI SANNER: Yeah, you’re holding all that next to yourself.
Well, they make it all smell good, so you think you’re doing good for yourself because it smells so good with the synthetic chemicals. But it’s just not right.
And then, in the winter time, that moisture that you expel actually keeps you hydrated and soft. And there again, you put all these stuff that’s irritating your skin, actually, what it’s doing is it’s drawing in the tapping. So, the more you do, the worse it becomes. It’s an unending circle.
I just thought, “Enough of this!” In the summer time, I don’t want to be so hot that I feel like I’m wearing saran wrap […] Your skin has to be able to absorb moisture, absorb vitamin D. That’s so important for our health. And then it has to be able to expel sweat and expel toxins to keep your body in balance.
That’s how we were designed to function. And Prima Natural respects that function.
DEBRA: Well, one of the things that I’ve learned about body function is that everything in our body is designed by nature to do a certain function of bringing in nutrients and expelling wastes. That’s the whole thing. And our skin is actually one of our largest organs that is bringing in nutrients, as you’ve said, from vitamin D from the sun and expelling wastes, all kinds of wastes, with our sweat and oils and all those things that we have to have that in-flow of air—even oxygen—and the expelling.
We need to have it in and then out.
HEIDI SANNER: Conventional cleansers will strip your skin, but then they put in all these fancy oils. Now they’re putting in argon oil. They’re getting fancier and fancier with the names and the oils that they’re finding and bringing from overseas in an attempt to lull us more and more into this thought. And it’s just not required.
DEBRA: It’s not. We need to keep those channels open. We need to keep those channels of exchange with the environment through our skin open. And so that’s one of the reasons why I’m so excited about your soap because it allows that. It allows our skin to function as skin.
HEIDI SANNER: Yeah, it’s an original thought, isn’t it, but it’s proving itself.
DEBRA: It is! But what it requires is being able think about how nature functions instead of thinking industrially. Our industrial products are based not on what we need in order to be healthy. They’re based on materials and sales and profits and “we’ll keep the factories going” and all those kinds of things just like any other industrial product.
HEIDI SANNER: Well, I think it was brought out of—I mean, I always have this Pollyanna view of the world. I think it would’ve started as “how do you get the most to the most people?” But this got out of hand.
DEBRA: I think so too. I do think that that was the beginning of industrialism, “how do we get more things to more people?” But we’ve lost sight of that.
HEIDI SANNER: Right! And we’ve lost sight of commonsense is what we lost sight of.
DEBRA: So, we don’t need to have all those oils and toners and moisturizers.
HEIDI SANNER: No! I mean, you tell me. You’ve tried this soap now for a while. As you use it and your skin balances out, you notice “I don’t need lotions anymore. My skin is okay as it is.”
DEBRA: It is, it really is. And I can say that I’m almost 59 years old and I don’t have wrinkles. I mean, I haven’t been using your soap for 59 years, but I think it’s because I’m not using all those commercial products. I actually put very little.
This will sound funny, but I even went through a phase where I wasn’t using even soap. I was just getting in the shower and putting water on my skin because I thought, “Let’s see how this works” because out in nature, I figured…
HEIDI SANNER: Well, let’s get into that when we come back, the pH and neutral and water and how that works. That’s also a fascinating topic.
DEBRA: Okay, good. We’ll talk about that when we come back. You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. And my guest today is Heidi Sanner from Prima Natural. We’re talking about soap and skin. We’ll be right back.
DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. And my guest today is Heidi Sanner from Prima Natural. We’re talking about soap and skin.
Heidi, tell us about pH-neutral skin cleansers?
HEIDI SANNER: Okay. Yeah, you mentioned with just water. Water is pH neutral. And the latest trend in marketing and skin cleansing are these ph neutral products. But think about it, neutral is just that, neutral. Nothing! No cleansing occurs. No bacterial protection results on the skin. It’s just neutral. You’re just smearing it around. You have to get clean. I’m a clean freak.
I’m sorry. I want to be clean.
And the real reason for pH neutral products in my opinion and according to my research is not for the good of the skin, it’s to extend the shelf life of the product. You have acid-loving bacteria that thrives in acidic environment. You have basic-loving bacteria that thrives in alkaline environment. But bacteria doesn’t thrive in a neutral environment. So that’s why they did this.
DEBRA: Well, that makes sense t me.
HEIDI SANNER: And “hey, let’s tell people it’s good for them. It’s neutral. It won’t hurt you.” Yeah, it won’t hurt you. It won’t do anything. It won’t get you clean either. This is a major discovery I came to when I was developing the perfect soap formulation.
Human skin is actually slightly acidic. And it needs a slightly basic formulation to bring it to neutral. So, I formulated Prima Natural to be slightly basic. So when it comes in combination with your skin, it will bring it to a true neutral where bacteria will not thrive.
DEBRA: Is that the reason why we want it to be neutral, is that bacteria will not thrive in your skin?
HEIDI SANNER: Right, right. You want to bring it to neutral.
DEBRA: Okay. But a neutral skin cleanser won’t bring it to neutral is what you’re saying?
HEIDI SANNER: No! If you remember from high school chemistry classes, neutral plus an acid—your skin is slightly acidic, right? Neutral plus an acid, you’re still going to have an acid. You have to combine a base with an acid to bring it to neutral.
And it has to be in the perfect combination as well so that it comes to neutral. Otherwise, we’ll be too acidic or too basic.
And that’s why you have irritated skin. You’re either too acidic with what you’re using (i.e. pH neutral or acidic products so that bacteria you’re trying to get rid of is still there, just thriving even more) or you have a cleanser that goes overboard the other way and you’re too basic (you’re too alkaline). It’s the same thing. It’s very irritating to your skin. You need a product that works with your skin to bring it to a true neutral, so that you can be comfortable and clean and everything functions as it should. I hope that makes sense.
DEBRA: Well, I’m just sitting here wondering if everybody understands what pH is. Could you just explain that just briefly?
HEIDI SANNER: PH is a measurement of the acidity or alkalinity, how acidic or how basic something is.
DEBRA: And so what you’re trying to do is you’re trying to balance it. It’s a chemistry thing.
Are you still there? I think that we just lost Heidi. I think that the line just went out. And so we will just find out in just a second.
I’m trying to not have dead air time. I think my line is lost.
HEIDI SANNER: I’m here!
DEBRA: Oh, okay, good. Good, good, good. Okay. Alright, good! I hope everybody stayed through that little dead air time because I wasn’t sure if it was my line that was gone or your line.
Alright! So, let’s get back to how do you get enough natural ingredients to run a soap company?
HEIDI SANNER: Oh my! That was the hardest part. As you know, I use raw goat milk. And raw goat milk increasingly is becoming illegal across the United States—the sale of raw milk, it has to be pasteurized. It’s being highly regulated.
DEBRA: So, is that true also to use it as a soap ingredient or I thought it was just for consumption?
HEIDI SANNER: No. In many states, it just can’t be sold, period. It doesn’t matter. And you can’t take it across state lines either. Then it becomes a federal offense.
DEBRA: I just need to say something about this. What I’m seeing more and more is regulations that, instead of helping us be more healthy, the regulations prevent us from doing healthy things. You’re talking about the raw milk. I’ve known about these raw milk regulations for a long time. If I was going to drink milk—I don’t drink milk, but if I was going to—I would want to drink raw milk. And there are only certain places—
I mean, it’s so healthy. It’s just so healthy. It’s what people used to drink. And the milk that is available now is not anything like what real milk is like.
HEIDI SANNER: We are more ill and have more disease.
DEBRA: Yeah. It used to be that doctors would prescribe people to drink milk in order to heal their illnesses. But they weren’t talking about drinking the milk we have today. They were talking about drinking raw milk.
And in the state of California now, we have this law. This has nothing to do with milk, but there’s this new law that basically is making it so that people who are selling natural fibers for upholstered furnishings have to put fire retardants on them in order to comply with the law. And this is just ridiculous!
I don’t want that to sound like an alarming statement. I’m actually doing a lot of research to figure out how we can still have untreated cotton upholstery furniture without violating the law. And I think that there’s a way to do that.
I can’t have chickens in my backyard. The police came and took my chickens. This is ridiculous! We should have laws that support health.
HEIDI SANNER: Absolutely! It got almost comical. And the way I got around this was I went to the state capital first and lobbied for the use of raw goat milk in soap. And they were not going to listen. And then I pointed out the fact that the states had given grants to the goat farmers to keep them in business, and then took away their ability to sell the product. It didn’t make any sense.
DEBRA: No, it doesn’t.
HEIDI SANNER: So, the way I got this done was I pointed that out to them. “Do you really want this to be publicized that you gave millions of dollars to goat farmers to build dairies and build up their herds, and then told them it was illegal to sell the milk?”
So, I have a special dispensation for Prima Natural that I can buy raw goat milk for the use of making soap only.
It’s funny, but it’s very sad.
DEBRA: It is, it is. If you look back at pre-industrial cultures, when you look at cultures or societies where people were living close to nature and that they were getting say their food from nature and everything that they needed to make their clothing and those kinds of things, they were growing food or hunting and gathering, if you look at those cultures, they have rules in place that their traditions are all around maintaining the resources so that they can survive. And we’re so far separated from our resources and from knowing what’s going with the relation between what we do and the environment. We can’t even see it because we’ve got this whole retail, industrial, consumer system between us.
All the rules need to say first how are we going to maintain the environment, how are we going to maintain health. And they all need to be in place in order to facilitate those things happening instead of blocking them from happening.
Anyway, that’s me on my soapbox for today. I just feel very, very strongly about this. This is like one thing. It’s like we don’t even have…
HEIDI SANNER: You can’t regulate such things. I mean, commonsense has gone out the window. There’s always an exception to every rule.
DEBRA: But we should not have rules like that, that you can’t sell raw milk. Those kind of rules just shouldn’t be there.
HEIDI SANNER: Especially when you’ve given public funds to the farmers to produce the raw milk.
DEBRA: Especially…
HEIDI SANNER: And then tell them they can’t sell it.
And these are organic. I mean, these are great! These goats are phenomenal. I’ve gone and I’ve visited them often. They’re organic farmers—
DEBRA: I have to interrupt you though because we’ve only got five seconds left. So thank you so much for being on the show.
Heidi’s website is PrimaNatural.com. You can go visit. I’ll be back tomorrow.
HEIDI SANNER: I hope it was helpful.
DEBRA: It was!
