My guest today is Eliana Jantz, founder of Shepherd’s Dream (which is now owned and run by her daughter Sarah Sunshine Smith). Eliana has taken another step in the innovation of using wool to make beds with her new business, Heartfelt Collective. We’ll be talking about her new venture, mattress design, and her experience with wool. Eliana has been a pioneer in the creation of wool beds for the past three decades and has worked closely with her wool growers to develop organic standards for wool (I helped write them). We have been friends for years. www.debralynndadd.com/debras-list/heartfelt-collective, www.debralynndadd.com/debras-list/shepherds-dream.
TOXIC FREE TALK RADIO
A New Kind of Bed
Host: Debra Lynn Dadd
Guest: Eliana Jantz
Date of Broadcast: October 08, 2013
DEBRA: Hi, I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. And this is Toxic Free Talk Radio where we talk about how to thrive in a toxic world.
Sometimes, we talk about what’s toxic. Sometimes, we talk about how to be less toxic. And some days, like today, we talk about going way outside of the box and being very much in harmony with nature.
It’s Tuesday, October 8th. And my guest today is Eliana Jantz. She’s the founder of Shepherd’s Dream, which has been a very popular mattress and bedding company for many years. And she now has a new business called Heartfelt Collective in which she is making beds like you’ve never seen before. I guarantee it.
Eliana is really oriented to the big view design. Most companies that are making natural beds are taking the regular American bed or European—the regular industrial bed—and swapping out the materials. Eliana, from the beginning, has always been thinking outside of this design box to be looking at universal principles for bed design, holistic approaches with local sourcing of materials, geographical and cultural perspectives, and designs from indigenous cultures.
And we’re going to talk about all of these things today and see what she’s up to.
Hi, Eliana.
ELIANA JANTZ: Hi, Debra. It’s great to be on the show with you. Thanks for inviting me.
DEBRA: It’s great to have you on the show!
ELIANA JANTZ: Oh, thank you.
DEBRA: First, I’m just going to tell everybody that Eliana and I have been friends for I don’t know how many decades.
ELIANA JANTZ: I think we met in the early ‘90s, so over 20 years.
DEBRA: I think it was earlier than that because I think I put you in my very first book, Non-Toxic & Natural in 1984. And I think I contacted you because I was looking for some kind of natural bed something to put in my book. And what you were doing was selling patterns and materials so that people could make their own mattresses.
ELIANA JANTZ: Yes, like the traditional Japanese futon.
DEBRA: That’s right. And that’s how we met.
So, before we get into talking about beds, what you are doing is so unusual. Tell us just a little bit about how you got into doing such a different thing. What inspired you in the beginning?
ELIANA JANTZ: We’re all conditioned by our culture. So we grow up with certain beds, and that’s how we start. We started with beds that were developed in this century. Before that, for eons, people were doing the kind of bed that I’m doing now. So,
I’ve come back to what was the ancient bed.
After we got off track a little bit there in the 1900s, when they introduced—
DEBRA: Industrial beds.
ELIANA JANTZ: —synthetics, yes. And latex foams, polyurethane foam, and then the Memory Foam, that got everybody way off track—even more now with toxic materials. And very intensive, mechanical, industrial process is also toxic to the planet.
What I wanted to set as an intention for today, for our talk today, is to de-mystify the whole subject of mattress for people.
DEBRA: And we’re going to do that. What I’d like to do is just start with the inspiration just to introduce you to our listening audience. I’d like to hear, and I think everybody likes to hear, what was that a-ha moment that you led out of the industrial bed into searching for a difference choice. And then we’ll talk about the nightmare of industrial beds. And we’ll talk about your big design picture.
ELIANA JANTZ: Sounds good. The very first thing that was the a-ha moment was when I saw the first handmade organic cotton—it wasn’t organic, it was a cotton futon made in the traditional Japanese way. And it was so beautiful to me. And it was the first real piece of furniture, definitely the first bed, that made sense.
And so, I was elated. I have a natural love for good design, basic design, for our life, to enhance our lives with. So this was a natural material that I was attracted to, and I started to then conduct workshops so that people could make their own bed.
And then, I just continued on with evolving according to what the feedback was from the people who were buying my beds.
What we found was that cotton tended to—
Shall I go into this now? How that evolved from the cotton?
DEBRA: Yes, go ahead.
ELIANA JANTZ: We started with cotton bedding, which is typically done in Japan—though they also use wool, and love to.
But it’s a more precious resource. The cotton was the most common. And we began there.
What we found was that by translating it over to the American industrial culture, that it didn’t translate well because people were used to thick mattresses, and the cotton futon was made very thin in Japan, and then aired out and kept dry.
Here, they began to collect moisture from the sleeping body, which is a very moist place, the bed. And it would, over time, start to mildew. It wasn’t the right balance of airing with the quality of that material and the design of that product.
DEBRA: I think we should also say about, in Japan, the way they use a futon is completely different than how we use a mattress. They’re very thin, and they go on top of tatami mats which can breathe. So there’s air circulation.
ELIANA JANTZ: Yes, even though it’s minimal.
DEBRA: And they’re so lightweight. They’re more like our comforters in terms of weight. So you can just pick them up and take them out on the balcony, and put them over the railing. And during the day time, they roll them up and put them away. There aren’t even beds like we have bedrooms.
ELIANA JANTZ: Yes, it’s integrated into their day, night life, the whole maintenance of it. They respect the fact that these products require maintenance. So they have a relationship that way in their day. And they’re very efficient with space.
And a tatami mat is the other component that I think is a raw material that’s prevalent and available to humans that makes a good partner to the felts, the wool felts, in creating a bed.
So, the tatami mat and the futon was the Japanese version. We took that in, started making thicker mattresses, had the problem of mold and hardness and unwieldiness, and then explored and found that wool was the solution for the issues that we were encountering there.
And we were very delighted to discover that wool has all these other qualities that benefit us so much. And so now, we’re wholeheartedly committed to the use of wool. And I, through Heartfelt Collective, we use only wool in our materials now, so that it’s completely consistent.
DEBRA: Tell us about the benefits of wool. We’re going to need to go to a break very soon, but we have enough time to just hear about wool.
ELIANA JANTZ: First thing people don’t realize on a bed, you want to know what the microclimate is going to be like. Most people pay attention to the quality of support, but they forget about the microclimate, so they lay on foam for a few minutes, and think, “Yes, it’s supporting me well.” But over a period of time, it’s really not. It’s actually holding your body heat close to you, and so you’re not able to easily make the balance of temperature needs in the body.
With wool, you’re completely supported with very efficient temperature regulation. So you’re going to sleep deeper and better without being woken.
And also, moisture—moisture on wool—you can have moisture going into the wool underneath you, but you won’t feel it as moisture because the wool is so incredibly dynamic at spreading that moisture out, so it will still feel dry, and it is drying as well, so the bed stays dry.
And this is a healthy bed. A dry bed is a healthy bed.
DEBRA: I live in Florida, and last night, it’s 83-degrees all night. And so there’s a lot of perspiration that goes on here, but I have your Shepherd’s Dream wool mattress, and on top of that, I have a wool topper, and on top of that, I have a wool felt. And my bed is always comfortable and never sweaty.
And we need to go to break, but we’re going to come back with a lot more information, interesting information you’ve never heard before about beds.
My guest today is Eliana Jantz. Her new business is Heartfelt Collective. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and this is Toxic Free Talk Radio. We’ll be right back.
DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and today, we’re talking about extraordinary beds.
But before we talk about your wonderful solution, Eliana, let’s talk about the nightmare of modern industrial beds because I know you want to talk about that, so tell us about that.
ELIANA JANTZ: Well, the reason I want to talk about it is because people are still under the impression that they don’t realize they have options other than this because it’s so prevalent. And the advertising budgets are so massive that people are inundated everywhere with this idea that Tempur-Pedic mattresses are—especially the Tempur-Pedic and Memory Foam are everywhere. Costco has it.
They’re very readily available, probably Wal-Mart has one, a Memory Foam now. And progressive people are buy these thinking that they are more healthy. But it turns out that they’re not.
This all started in the 20’s and 30’s. In the 20’s, the first latex was created, and it was created for British royalty.
DEBRA: Oh, really? I didn’t know that.
ELIANA JANTZ: Yes. They’re the only ones that could afford them. Everybody else was sleeping on a variety of natural materials in different construction techniques, but simple mattresses, sometimes just fiber-filled.
And then the springs came about in the 30’s, so that’s when we started getting inner springs. The original ones were like the buggy that people would ride around in. They liked that feeling under their butt.
Then they translated it to the mattress and thought this is great, and then had a big advertising push on that, and really convinced everybody that this is the way to sleep.
Well, it turns out, we know [inaudible 00:12:11] biology has done all the research and shown that the metals are actually doing havoc with your natural electromagnetic field around your body. So that’s not a good idea. And then the bounciness is actually not a good idea either because it compromises your ability as an intelligent body to position itself correctly.
You have this give underneath you that doesn’t let you feel where ground is. And so you’re confused about how to position yourself. So it has that downfall.
And then once foams became prevalent—in the 30’s, they began using the foam materials, polyurethane materials, in the mattresses, along with a host of other chemicals that would create flame resistance or bug resistance or who knows what.
So you end up with this bed full of synthetic and toxins, toxic materials. And now, they’re still, even now, selling everybody on this Tempur-Pedic, which is the worst, probably, of all of them. It tends to overheat more than regular foam than the original polyurethane foam or latex. And it has very toxic side effects.
I’m sure you’ve heard from people on that one, right, Debra?
DEBRA: Yes, absolutely.
ELIANA JANTZ: And the Memory Foam and Tempur-Pedic, a lot of people have had big problems with that. And it’s brought on symptoms to their lungs or breathing, and so forth.
The only reason—it’s very well-promoted, and that’s why people are convinced that this must be okay, but it’s really not.
So what a lot of the organic mattress makers are doing now is making beds more or less the traditional inner spring, box spring or version of latex mixed with natural materials, but looking very much the same as really the old, big mattresses.
I’m not a big fan of big, bulky mattresses because it’s very difficult to take care of them.
DEBRA: When I started having natural mattresses all those many years ago, I had a cotton futon, but I think it was 8 or 10-inches thick, and I couldn’t move it. And then I had a wool mattress that was very thick. Before I got yours, I had a wool mattress that was very thick.
I remember my ex-husband used to call it the elephant because I would try to lift it, and I couldn’t. It was so thick that you would actually perspire. And then I had these perspiration stains on the mattress cover, and it got so bad that the cover actually wore through.
And then I just had a big lump of wool with a ripped cover, and it did not take many years for this to happen.
So what I finally ended up with was yours. And yours works because it’s layered.
ELIANA JANTZ: Layer is one of the design principles that I come up with. Layers, it’s so sensible. And we’ve now gotten to with the layered felt bed to where you have however many layers, 6 to 10 layers of felt, each of them weighs only six to eight pounds.
It can be easily, individually taken out to sun. It’s just an easy, beautiful thing. Anyone can do it. So yes, that’s jumping ahead a little bit too.
DEBRA: That’s jumping ahead a little bit, and we have another break coming up in about 30 second. And I want to introduce your bed properly, so that people understand what’s happening.
ELIANA JANTZ: And I’d like to talk a little bit more about the wool fiber too, and it’s health qualities a little more as well.
DEBRA: Okay, good. Well, we will do all of that when we come back from this break. My guest today is Eliana Jantz, and she’s the founder many years of Shepherd’s Dream, which I know many people love, and I love, and I have a Shepherd’s Dream bed. And now, she has a new more advanced, more ancient design with her beds from Heartfelt Collective, which we’re going to talk about very soon.
I’m Debra Lynn, and you’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. And I’m 10 seconds short. I got the clock wrong.
I think that the wool be is the way to go. I have a wool bed with a wool mattress, a wool topper, a wool comforter, a wool pillow, and everything is wool.
We’ll be right back.
DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and today, my guest is Eliana Jantz, who is the founder of Shepherd’s Dream, and she now has a new bedding company called the Heartfelt Collective Beds at HeartfeltCollective.com.
And I encourage you—we’re going to describe the bed, but I encourage you to go to her website at HeartfeltCollective.com, and actually, look at what we’re talking about because when I first saw the pictures of these mattresses, it took my breath away. It was such a deep primal recognition of, yes, this is the bed—
ELIANA JANTZ: It makes sense.
DEBRA: It makes sense. It totally makes sense. But I want to back up just for a second before we talk about this bed because one of the innovations that Eliana made in Shepherd’s Dream was this whole idea of layering that instead of having one thick mattress, like the general industrial mattress and also most natural fiber mattresses follow the same model.
What she did was she made thinner mattresses out of wool, and then you could pile them up to be whatever thickness you wanted, whatever firmness you wanted, and you put them on a wood slat bed, so that there is—a wood slat frame, so that there is circulation around it.
And that’s what I’ve been sleeping on for years. And it just makes sense to me.
ELIANA JANTZ: Yes. And the wool is what we arrived at fully. Before we were doing layers filled with cotton as well, but wool turned out to be the ideal material, so it actually is on our basic design principles is use of wool only, and the use of wool as felt because as soon it’s felted, now, it’s a maintainable and washable layer for your bed mattress.
DEBRA: Let’s talk about the Heartfelt because it’s so, so different. Just describe it, Eliana. Describe it.
ELIANA JANTZ: So these felts, we discovered that we could take this fresh bedding that we were having delivered from our carding mill here in Montague. And through a wet felting process, we could come up with a stable, felted pad that was wool.
So when I saw that, that was it. It was the very fulfilling, almost last step with the wool because where can you go from that?
It’s as simple as it can get. And it’s very easy to maintain, and it’s just a natural for so many things in our domestic lives.
DEBRA: And the felt are washable.
ELIANA JANTZ: They’re washable. They’re washable.
DEBRA: So anybody who is concerned about having a bed that they need to wash it, and get the dust mites out, or they need to take it outside and put it in the sun, or they need to beat it like rug, or anything like that.
When I look at these pictures—I have a felt on my bed. I actually got one of the first felts, not number one, but one of the early felts on my bed. And it makes such a difference to have the wool just right there.
ELIANA JANTZ: It really is amazing.
DEBRA: Under the sheet. It really makes a difference.
ELIANA JANTZ: It’s about a third of an inch thick. And it doesn’t seem like much, but it really does provide a lot of give.
There’s springiness in the wool fiber. That’s another reason.
DEBRA: There is, and an absorption that’s just right there under the sheet. That’s [inaudible 21:18] sheet and my wool felt.
Thinking back to this whole idea of the futons in Japan, I’m looking at these pictures on your website, and I could just see if I had one of these beds, I could just take and roll up the felts, and take them wherever I wanted to take them, and I’ll lift the bed again.
That you don’t need to figure out how you’re going to get the mattress down the stairs, or how can you lift it or whatever. It’s completely nomadic.
ELIANA JANTZ: And it’s an heirloom. It’s going to last you a lifetime, and you pass it on.
That’s a piece about mattresses that are common out there. The box spring, inner spring and the foam mattresses, that they end up in a landfill in about 10 or 15 years. That’s the life span they’re given. And then you have to start again with another—
DEBRA: And garbage. But this will last for so long.
ELIANA JANTZ: This is an heirloom that will go on and on.
And so when I just saw that felt, I was excited, and I was talking about the idea of a layered felt mattress for years, seven years now, or eight years.
And finally, last year, after working on developing the technique for wet felting, I put one together and developed a way of lacing it into a unit that looks more like a mattress. And so when people saw that, they realized, “Oh, that’s what she was talking about. That’s great.”
DEBRA: And when I saw that lacing, I went, “Oh, my god. This is what it should look like.”
But even if it wasn’t laced, you could still just pile them up.
ELIANA JANTZ: It’s beautiful. It’s wonderful. It’s beautiful. It’s a sacred little touch at the end. But it’s not really necessary for the design of the product. You could just layer felts on top of each other without the closure, for people who are that way.
I’m that way—minimum maintenance. So I can just grab felts as I need to, rather than unlacing and relacing. But it can be done either way.
So these felts are placed on top of the slatted frame, and the slatted frame is very closely spaced, less than an inch, three-quarters of an inch or less, and the slats are two and a half inches wide. And so those can be ordered from Shepherd’s Dream, but you can make them yourself too.
And then the layers are just placed on top of that closely slatted frame. And people will use anywhere from 5 layers to 12 layers for their mattress.
DEBRA: So I see in one of these pictures that you have one tied up in a roll like a pillow. So are you using them for pillows too?
ELIANA JANTZ: Yes. They make great bolsters. We use the yoga mat as a two-person pillow bolster where we can both use it, talking to each other, laying down, or resting. Or for whatever reason, they’re great for mattress on massage tables or floor massage or yoga, stretching.
They have so many uses. They can be used as wall felt. We have a whole room now done with our wall. We just put the felt right over the studs, and it just makes it really cozy. You think you’re in a [unintelligible 24:53].
DEBRA: So you’re using it instead of sheetrock? You just put it up the studs and then stretch the felts? What a great idea. And so does this act as soundproofing too?
ELIANA JANTZ: Yes. It just makes it a very cozy, sweet space. And it can be taken down and washed. So yes, it goes on and on.
The wool, or animal furs, or sheep skin, or sheep wool, has been with us forever. It’s the ultimate companion for humanity. It helps make life easier and support us through our healing and balancing process.
DEBRA: I agree. We need to take another break, but we’ll be back with more. We’re talking with Eliana Jantz about her new business, HeartfeltCollective.com, where they’re making beds out of wool felts, just layers of wool felts.
I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and you’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio, and we’ll be right back.
DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and my guest today is Eliana Jantz of Shepherd’s Dream and HeartfeltCollective.com. And we’re talking today about her new wool felts that she’s making, and how she’s putting them together to make a mattress, but they also have other uses.
Eliana, I’m looking at your other uses for felts page. Do you want to tell us what some of those are? We already talked about some, but are there any others you’d like to mention?
ELIANA JANTZ: Well, they make a great car seat pad. That’s another place you spend a lot of time where you want to have that quality, but wonderful wool next to you. And again, the microclimate being the most ideal you could have.
I mentioned the floor stretching. If you’re a floor person like me, I spend all my time at home on the felt doing everything I do.
But it’s wonderful for a floor massage.
There are so many things. We want to continue to develop other products, as we’re getting organized as a collective, making these felts. It’s going to give us an opportunity to work together, those of us who are…
DEBRA: There are so many things. I’m looking at these pictures here. There’s this adorable picture, on the homepage, of a little girl. She’s just wrapped in a felt. And part of it is under her as the pad, and part of it is over here as the blanket.
And I just look at that and I go, “I just want to be wrapped up in a felt.”
It’s so wonderful.
And also, you can cut them. So if people buy a particular-sized felt, they can just cut pieces. Like here, you have it pictured as a chair pad, which I think I should get a felt for that. And you can put as many layers as you want.
And the neck roll—wool comes in different natural colors. Mine is charcoal grey, but it also comes in regular kind of cream color.
There’s so much you could do with these. I would actually love to have a coat made out of one of these felts.
ELIANA JANTZ: We’ll get to that, Debra. We will.
DEBRA: We’re almost to the end of our hour. Eliana, would you tell us something about your collective, and how your whole business has grown up there in Montague, California, and all the interconnected pieces?
ELIANA JANTZ: So we moved here in 2002 because Patrick Colon had developed this carding mill, and we were in need of a wool that was processed to the quality that we were looking for, which was hard to find at the time.
And so this was a real godsend to us to have a mill close by where we could source our wool.
So it was, in fact, such a big deal. We moved to Montague where the mill was set up. And we’ve been here now 11 years.
And that mill was put together by Patrick Colon, who passed away a couple of years later, and then was taken over by my now son-in-law, who’s now the owner and manager of the mill. They’ve since set up a second mill and they provide almost, probably most of the organic mattress companies on the West Coast with the wool.
And then Sarah, my daughter, took over ownership of the company we started in ’97, Shepherd’s Dream. And so that is, in fact, the operations for that is humming away right underneath me here as I speak. I’m on the second floor right above the workshop.
And I love this integration with Shepherd’s Dream. They’ve been really supportive of me during this process of [inaudible 00:29:56] the felt bed. And in fact, if you go to their website, you’ll see that the layered felt bed is the first thing, an option that they list for mattress.
And since they did, we’ve had a lot of orders coming. And so I’ve been training new felters who are joining the collective, and we’re up to three felters now doing this as a full livelihood. With the way that the orders are continually increasing, we’ll be adding more felts as we go.
We’re going into a paradigm, in terms of how our life feels, and how we work. It’s set up so that we all have maximum flexibility.
And yet, we’re working together and collaborating.
We have cottage industry set up in pods, at certain locations, home locations, where up to six felters can join that pod.
Also, the whole financial aspect of how Heartfelt Collective works is completely transparent to all members of the collective.
And so we are truly exploring new models for how we can run a production, distribution system.
So it’s very exciting for me.
DEBRA: That’s so wonderful. The whole time that I’ve known you all these many years, you’re always looking to see how can we be closer to nature, how can we be less industrial and more human.
I admire this so much about you because you’re not only are envisioning these things, but you’re actually putting them into practice, and you’re bringing people together around you, who are wanting to explore these new ideas with you.
And I think that this is really the way things should be made.
ELIANA JANTZ: People resonate with it.
DEBRA: And I feel that when I’m sleeping on my bed at night. I know where it came from. I have been to visit Eliana in Montague several times. I have slept in the Shepherd’s Dream showroom, workshop, where they make the mattresses. I know exactly where she’s sitting upstairs, talking to us, because I’ve been in that room too.
ELIANA JANTZ: To mention also, Shepherd’s Dream has a guest room where you can try out the wool mattress that they make, which is a five-inch wool mattress on a slatted frame.
You can just call Shepherd’s Dream if you’re coming through this way, and book a night, and try it out, and if you end up buying a mattress, they credit you that. It’s $35 a night to stay on a beautiful space with a wool bed, with a shower and bath. So it’s fun.
DEBRA: It is. If you’re looking for a non-toxic place to stay, it’s near Ashland, Oregon. So if you’re wanting to go on a trip to Ashland, go stay at Shepherd’s Dream because it’s the most non-toxic place you’ll ever stay. It’s wonderful. Unless you stay at my house, of course.
ELIANA JANTZ: And then when you come here, you can come up to my studio, and try out the layered felt bed as well, and see how it’s done because our school is located here as well where we’re felting away most days.
DEBRA: I think that it’s worth the trip if you’re anywhere nearby. I’ve even driven from the San Francisco Bay Area up to—it’s near Mount Shasta. So it’s about a 4-hour drive from San Francisco.
ELIANA JANTZ: It’s right off the I5. We’re five miles east of the I5.
DEBRA: It’s a big straight shot on the I5 to go north, but it is about four hours. And then you just go down a little country road, and you go and see, and it’s just an incredible example of what can be done. And it’s a nice drive.
ELIANA JANTZ: Yes, this little town is—
DEBRA: It’s just a little town, but it’s a wonderful thing to see, and just go try out the beds, and you can see the sheep along the way.
We only have a couple of minutes left, Eliana. I’m so glad that you are with me today. Do you have any closing words you’d like to say?
ELIANA JANTZ: The main thing I want everybody to know is you can create a wonderful bed, and you don’t have to be confused by all the many, many options out there that sound very confounding. Just think about basic principles, and then just slowly design your bed, and create it, and we can help you.
So we have plans and instructions for how to do slats and so forth. So if you are in a do it yourself camp, then we can help you with that too. You can call Heartfelt and order directly from us. And you can set up a consultation with us by e-mailing us right straight from the website. And Shepherd’s Dream is right there to provide the products, like the frame, and latex strips.
So it’s full service, every component of a bed, you can be surrounded in wool, and that is the best way to be when you’re sleeping.
DEBRA: And I would also say that if budget is a concern that you can buy these things piece by piece. You could start out buying a felt, and then buy another felt. And pretty soon, you’ll have enough to get rid of your old mattress.
So it’s not like you need to invest thousands of dollars all at once.
And even by the time you’re done with it, it’s not thousands of dollars. It’s something that’s affordable.
ELIANA JANTZ: And it depends on how many layers you need.
DEBRA: Yes.
ELIANA JANTZ: Some people need five. Some people need 12. So it’s very flexible that way. It can always be changed, added to, subtracted from, used for many different uses.
DEBRA: Well, go to HeartfeltCollective.com, and take a look at this because I’m sure that you’ll be pleased with it, and it’s certainly something. If you’re looking for a bed, this is something to consider.
I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. You can find out more about Toxic Free Talk Radio by going to ToxicFreeTalkRadio.com. All the shows are archived, recorded and archived. You can listen to this one again. You can listen to yesterday’s. You can listen to a past one with Sarah Sunshine Smith from Shepherd’s Dream.
Thank you for being with me. This is Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd.
