My guest today is Olle Johansson, a world-leading authority in the field of EMF radiation and health effects. If you are concerned about EMFs and their health effects, tune in and listen to one of the most knowledgeable men on the planet on this subject. Professor Johansson is associate professor, head of the Experimental Dermatology Unit, Department of Neuroscience, at the Karolinska Institute (famous for its Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine) in Stockholm, Sweden, and yes, we will be talking with him in Sweden. He has also been a professor in basic and clinical neuroscience at the Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm. He has published more than 500 original articles, reviews, book chapters and conference reports within the field of basic and applied neuroscience. His studies have been widely recognized in the public media, including newspapers, radio and TV as well as on the Internet, both nationally as well as internationally. He has participated in more than 300 congresses and symposia as an invited speaker, and with free contributions and as an invited ‘observer’ at an additional 100. Professor Johansson is a member of, i.a., The European Neuroscience Association (ENA), The European Society for Dermatological Research (ESDR), IBAS Users of Scandinavia (IBUS), The International Brain Research Organization (IBRO), The International Society for Stereology (ISS), The New York Academy of Sciences, The Royal Microscopical Society (RMS), Scandinavian Society for Electron Microscopy (SCANDEM), The Skin Pharmacology Society (SPS), Society for Neuroscience, Svenska Fysiologföreningen, Svenska Intressegruppen för Grafisk Databehandling (SIGRAD), Svenska Läkaresällskapet, and the Svenska Sällskapet för Automatiserad Bildanalys (SSAB). ki.se/en/neuro/johansson-laboratory
TOXIC FREE TALK RADIO
Health Effects of Man-Made Electromagnetic Field & Functional Impairment Electrosensitivity
Host: Debra Lynn Dadd
Guest: Olle Johansson
Date of Broadcast: May 13, 2014
DEBRA: Hi, I’m Debra Lynn Dadd and this is Toxic Free Talk Radio where we talk about how to thrive in a toxic world and live toxic-free.
It is Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 and I am just going to get right to my guest today because he is speaking to us all the way from Stockholm, Sweden and he has a lot to say.
He is Professor Olle Johansson. He’s a world leading authority in the field of electromagnetic fields radiation and health effects. And he sent me a list of about 500 articles he has written on this. I mean he really is one of the most knowledgeable on EMFs I have ever met. Actually, I haven’t met him yet. I emailed with him, but I am going to meet him right now and so are you.
Hi, Professor Johansson. Thank you so much for being here.
OLLE JOHANSSON: Oh, it is a great honor to be on your show today and it is going to be very interesting to hear your questions.
DEBRA: Oh, good. I am going to be very interested in hearing your answers. So the first question I have for you is how did you get interested originally in this field in the beginning?
OLLE JOHANSSON: Oh, that was actually thanks to radio. I very rarely myself listen to radio. I have to admit that. But in the early 1980s, for some reason late evening, I was listening to the radio in my laboratory and I hadn’t done that for months actually.
And suddenly, I hear in the program a woman with the name […] from one of the trade union secretariats here in Sweden. She was talking about what, at that time, was called screen dermatitis, meaning people that got skin irritations primarily in their face, arms, hands, upper chest when they were sitting in the very newly introduced PC computers.
DEBRA: I remember that. I remember people talking about that then.
OLLE JOHANSSON: Yes. I got very interested because she was asking for expertise in neurology. And I am not a neurologist, but a neuroscientist. So I thought, “Well, close enough. Why don’t I give her a call?”
So, I called her after the program and said that I was prepared to help her investigate these skin problems in people sitting in front of these computer screens and also ordinary television sets.
She got very excited and we put ourselves together with a physicist from one of the universities here in Sweden. He was an expert also in the electromagnetic fields and exposure and measurements and the whole technical side.
I remember, we were very enthusiastic. We met at my office here in Stockholm at the Karolinska Institutet and we drew our plans for different projects that we would apply money for and start investigating.
And no one obviously then realized that a little bit further down the road, around the corner, there were forces in play that actually didn’t want us to investigate that. But that came later on. We started out in grand style.
And the very first project we actually did was to, in a double blind fashion, investigate different types of skin using advanced microscopy, looking for cells and the content of different biologically active molecules. And we looked at skin from normal healthy volunteers. We looked at skin from the people that got the skin rashes in front of the computer screens. And we also had different patient categories like rosacea and seborrheic keratosis.
And we then, in a double blind fashion, tried to pick out which looked normal and abnormal.
And to make a long story short, to our enormous surprise, it came out very easily to pick out the persons with the screen dermatitis, what we today call electro-sensitivity or electro-hypersensitivity because they had dramatic alterations in their cells of different types.
DEBRA: What types of alterations were in their cells?
OLLE JOHANSSON: Some cell types were more or less gone and some others have increased dramatically in number. And you have to remember that, at that time, I was a complete amateur. I didn’t quite understand what I was looking at.
So, I showed pictures to other experts in the clinical dermatology, clinical immunology radiation damages, et cetera. And they helped us. It was very relevant that what we saw was early prolonged stages of classic radiation damage—and with that, I mean what you would have seen if you, for instance, were exposed from an atomic bomb or from other forms of radio-nuclides or overexposure to X-rays or overexposure to strong ultraviolet light.
But they haven’t, these persons, been closed to any radioactivity or X-rays or anything like that. They have just been sitting in front of computer screens, television sets and started to report skin irritations, redness, numbness, pain, pricking sensations, et cetera. And at that time, we called it “screen dermatitis,” later on, as “electro-hypersensitivity.”
And as you may remember, the general explanation at that time was that the reason people felt these skin irritations was because of people like yourself. When journalists, reporters, radio hosts, television program hosts and so on started to report on that, it was believed that the mass media hysteria was developed. It was a mass media psychosis.
But of course, that could be very easily disproven by using, for instance, rats. And rats develop the very same kind of skin alterations. And with all due respect, rats do not listen to radio. They do not read newspapers. They do not watch television.
And still they got the same radiation damages as the persons with electro-hypersensitivity.
DEBRA: Okay, so is there a particular description? Aside from getting the symptoms, how would you describe a typical person with electro-hypersensitivity? Do they have a particular history?
OLLE JOHANSSON: Yeah, that’s a very, very important and very good question. And the simple and quick answer would be anyone.
And as you probably know, there are a lot of very famous people, including for instance the former World Health Organization President Gro, Harlem Brundtland who also was the Prime Minister of Norway, she is a typical electro-hypersensitive person, meaning that she could still work on, she could still manage her life, but with a few alterations.
And then you have a scale from people with very few problems to people that are really handicapped by their electro-hypersensitivity. And from a general point of view, around 70% to 80% start with sensations from their skin and from eyes, from the mouth for instance. And of course, these are the external boundaries towards the rest of the universe. Where you have your skin, your cells stops and the rest of the universe starts. It works like an antenna picking up changes in the environment.
And I very much like the title of your show, Toxic Free because maybe these people, in that way, functions as the classical canary bird in the coal mine telling us that something in the environment is wrong. And they are wise enough to take themselves out of the situation and avoid getting close to computer screens, mobile phones, low energy light bulbs.
But the rest of the population, like myself, who do not have any such sensations, we will keep on using all these gadgets.
And now I am jumping ahead a lot because now we come into the 1990s and the 2000s because then more and more focus was being put on, for instance, long term effects such as neurological diseases and of course cancers—particularly brain tumors and childhood leukemia.
DEBRA: Okay, we need to take a break and we will talk more when we come back from the break. But I have something I want to say when we come back and then I will let you talk about.
OLLE JOHANSSON: Okay.
DEBRA: You are listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I am Debra Lynn Dadd and my guest today is Dr. Olle—how do you say your name? Am I saying it right?
OLLE JOHANSSON: Olle Johansson.
DEBRA: Thank you. That’s who he is.
OLLE JOHANSSON: But you can say Olle Johansson, that’s all right.
DEBRA: Olle Johansson. And he is from Stockholm, Sweden and we will tell you more about him when we come back to. So stay with us.
DEBRA: You are listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I am Debra Lynn Dadd and my guest today is Professor Olle Johansson. How was that?
OLLE JOHANSSON: Oh, that’s good.
DEBRA: Good, okay. He’s a world leading authority in the field of EMF radiation. Now, he’s with the Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm, Sweden and that is famous for its Nobel Prize in Physiology and Medicine. So this is a very prestigious international organization that he is with and he is very well-recognized in this field.
What I wanted to say in response to what you are saying earlier about the canaries, one of the things that I found in my work with toxic chemicals is that when I started being aware of toxic chemical dangers, it was at a time when people were talking about people being chemically sensitive as if we were a special group of people and that it wasn’t affecting anybody else, except for this little group of people who were chemically sensitive.
And so when I found out that I was responding physically to exposures to toxic chemicals, they didn’t really call them toxic chemicals at the time. They just said chemicals. So there was something wrong with us because everybody else could tolerate them. So there was nothing wrong with them because we were the only ones that we are getting sick.
Now, what I found when I started researching was that it wasn’t just that I was getting sick because of some otherwise healthy materials. I was getting sick because what I was being exposed to then that was making me sick were poisons. They were recognized poisons that were not being acknowledged in the consumer marketplace.
And I see that it’s very similar with electromagnetic fields now because there’s now a designation. And I am not saying it is wrong to designate this way, but there is a designation that there is a group of people who are electro-hypersensitive.
And yet, the way I see it is and I think that you would agree with them that these health effects, as you said, even happen to rats. And so it is not just a select group of people. These things are happening to everyone. And I know that even myself is like, “I don’t have symptoms that I know of that are related to EMFs.” And so I say, “Oh, I don’t need to do anything about it, but I do need to do something about it because it is affecting my health.”
Whether I see it or not, sometimes there are long term things, which you are about to tell us about.
OLLE JOHANSSON: That’s a very, very important comment of yours. And there are so many things I would like to pick up on.
DEBRA: Okay.
OLLE JOHANSSON: I today received a paper that gives a big yes to you. It’s about “metabolic and genetic screening” of electromagnetic hypersensitive subjects as well as subjects about chemical sensitivity. And as you say, they have deranged or rearranged chemical and genetic make-ups. And so they are affected.
And the question is of course which is primary cause and which is the secondary cause.
Then to go to normal healthy volunteers, we did in the late 1990s and early 2000s a study which really surprised us, I could tell you. Namely, we had put normal healthy volunteers in front of ordinary television sets, ordinary computer screens. We exposed them. No one reported any problems, whatsoever.
A few of these are students. The students said that it was a little bit boring to sit with their back to computer screens and television sets for eight hours. They had nothing. They didn’t anything in the skin, no rashes, no irritations, no pain, nothing.
But when we looked in the microscope, they showed alterations after approximately two hours as if they would have been sitting close to X-ray machines or radioactivity. And they were not at all feeling this. But the body had reacted.
As you say, that was the huge warning signal because everyone nowadays is using mobile phones and wireless indoor phones, routers, Wi-Fi, computers, et cetera. And maybe we are looking ahead of a huge collapse, medical collapse when all these people have been worn out from this constant exposure.
And the question is of course, what do we have in a long term run, around the corner?
And I do hope of course that I am wrong and that all scientists are wrong, that there isn’t any risk, whatsoever. But today, I am flooded every day with an overwhelming amount of reports. So it’s hard to really keep pace. And more and more and more are pointing into one single direction that these exposures, they are to be seen as […] toxic one. They are not good for us.
And if you look around the biology, you probably know that there have been a huge number of studies on different experimental animals, on organs, on tissue pieces, on cells, on molecules. And to make a very long story short, no one of these—no rats, no mice, no cells, no one of them—should buy and use these gadgets. But we force them to do it because we buy it and all our cells in our body are exposed and cells everywhere are exposed.
There are some extremely interesting studies from France, for instance, where tomato plants were exposed. It’s a very, very well controlled study, excellent study. And it turned out that these tomato plants, when they look at them and I quote from the French scientists, they said, “They reacted as if we would have crushed them with a hammer.”
DEBRA: Oh, my God!
OLLE JOHANSSON: So it is the same molecular sequence of damaged molecules including molecule called calmodulin. And they hadn’t touched them. They have to allow them to be in pretty low exposure from […] That was it. And still, they reacted in such a dramatic way.
So, what we saw in the 1980s then is mimicked, more or less, identically in a lot of other studies. And as I say, nowadays, I am pretty stressed every morning when I get to work because my computer looks like a pregnant woman more or less. It’s more like going to burst with information because scientists all over the world are producing so many papers nowadays and I am just amazed. And I can only really talk about the Swedish authorities, but I am amazed how rapidly all these studies are swept aside. And I just don’t know why.
DEBRA: I have an idea about that I want to talk to you about when we come back from the break. You are listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I am Debra Lynn Dadd and my guest is Professor Olle Johansson from the Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm, Sweden.
We are talking about EMFs. He has written more than 500 articles about this. So he really knows this stuff. I am sure you can all tell by listening to him. So we will be right back.
DEBRA: I am Debra Lynn Dadd and we are having a very interesting discussion today with my guest, Professor Olle Johansson from the Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm, Sweden.
What I wanted to say was that I think that a lot of the problem with recognizing the damage from EMFs is you can’t see it.
And I think that that’s part of the problem with toxic chemicals too because in both areas, we have a tremendous number of people who are looking at the studies and saying, “Oh well, that’s interesting,” and doing nothing because they don’t think that it applies to them.
But what people don’t understand about EMFs and chemicals is that there can be internal damage going. There can be damage to cells. There can be damage to DNA.
Actually, if I remember correctly I think I read something somewhere about how that the damage happens way before the symptoms occur, just any kind of damage to your body. The symptoms are one of the last things that happen, but you can be sick way before you start having symptoms.
And so what’s happening in our society at large globally is that we are being exposed to toxic chemicals and EMFs, which are causing damage to our bodies that we don’t see. And that doesn’t mean it isn’t there. It just means that people aren’t to the point of symptoms yet.
And when we get to that point of symptoms, I think that there’s going to be a point where the world recognized after many years of everybody smoking cigarettes that it takes 30 years to develop cancer from cigarettes. At any moment, it could be 30 years from when we started using solvent. I don’t remember the year.
When I was a child, we didn’t have all these electronic gadgets. And so there’s going to be a time period where suddenly, we are going to start seeing the results of this like we started making the connection between cigarettes and cancer. What do you think about that?
OLLE JOHANSSON: It is true indeed. Then you also have to remember if it takes 30 years from the initial transformation at the cellular level to develop a cancer, maybe it took yet another 20 or 30 years before that to instigate, for instance, DNA damage which has been shown for exposure from mobile phone, telephony for instance.
And then we are talking about an exposure that happened maybe when you were a baby. You were exposed to the electromagnetic fields. You got the damage to your DNA. But it took time before it really turned into a cancer transformation at the cellular level. And then the tumor and such needs to build up to a level where a clinician can tell you, “I am so sorry. I have something to talk with you about.”
DEBRA: Yes.
OLLE JOHANSSON: So the span could be enormous. Also you have to remember there are studies pointing to that there could be transgenerational effects so that things may be shown later on in generations.
For instance, there was a very famous Greek study where they looked on fertility. And to make a long story short again, in the first, second, third and fourth generation, they didn’t see anything. But in the fifth generation, the fertility was basically just gone and the population on mice used was becoming fertile, meaning that our grand, grand, grand, grand children may be infertile due to something we did in 2014. And then it is too late to call back and say, “Hey please, could you stop doing this?”
DEBRA: Right, exactly right. And so why don’t you tell us about the Precautionary Principle?
OLLE JOHANSSON: That is something that is used sometimes. And as you know, myself and others, we feel very strongly it should be used now, especially since we are talking about toys. I mean they are not life necessities like food, water, air to breathe, love, compassion and understanding. These gadgets are toys.
And the Precautionary Principle then states that you should take precaution if you cannot rule out any form of risk. And you should remember that for instance, the telecom manufacturers as well as the operators, they tell you to keep mobile phone or similar gadget at least one inch away from your body.
DEBRA: It does that.
OLLE JOHANSSON: Yeah, the telecom operators and manufacturers. For instance, when you buy a mobile phone, in the thick booklet you get, somewhere it will say that you have to keep it at least one inch away from your body, meaning that you can never ever touch it.
DEBRA: That’s right.
OLLE JOHANSSON: And it is very intelligent. In Sweden, we have a completely different legal system than you have in United States. Here, you can never win against the company or anything like that. You can never get any money, anything. So here, companies are safe.
But of course, in the United States, a private person can enter a court of law and win and get billions of US dollars as compensation. And therefore, they quite early realize we have to have some precautionary principle of our own and this is one of the aspects of that.
And the first thing that a lawyer will ask you if you claim you got a brain tumor, they will ask you, “Was it the left or right hand you use when you talk in your mobile phone?” “Well, it was actually the right hand.” “But we told you we cannot keep close to your body.”
DEBRA: Yeah. I totally understand what you are saying.
OLLE JOHANSSON: So it is very, very intelligent from that point of view. So they have their precautionary principle. And also if you go to the insurance companies around the world, including the big ones like Lloyds in the UK and Reassurance in Switzerland, they completely refuse to take responsibility for this. And they say that they will not reassure in any way as they will not do for other things like gene modified organisms, nanotechnology and so on.
And I feel this is very strange. They are sold to us 100% risk-free and completely safe, but then it should be completely safe to insure them, shouldn’t it?
DEBRA: Yes.
OLLE JOHANSSON: But they completely refused any form of liability for this. And this is not new. This goes back to the early 2000s actually. And already in London, 2004, we learned about these things that all these different levels of society claiming safety still have their precautionary principles.
DEBRA: Yeah. We need to take another break. But we will be right back. You are listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I am Debra Lynn Dadd and my guest today is Professor Olle Johansson from the Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm, Sweden. And we will continue our discussion on EMFs right after this.
DEBRA: You are listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I am Debra Lynn Dadd and my guest today is Professor Olle Johansson from the Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm, Sweden. We are talking about EMFs.
Dr. Johansson, there was a video. I think you probably saw it. It was sent to me yesterday and I know we are both on the same mailing list about EMFs here. You are probably on many more. But we are on a common and that’s how we met actually.
And this video is called Look Up. You can probably just go to YouTube and Google it or something. It’s called Look Up. And the whole point of this video is to get people to see how all this technology of smart phones and iPads, even something that we take for granted like email has served to make us very robotic and not have personal human relationships.
I wanted to bring this up and I forgot to do it in the beginning. I remember many years ago when I was doing some local environmental work and we were talking about, “Could we email to each other?” That’s how new email was.
I was living in a rural area in California and we would have to drive to a central point to one of our houses in order to have a meeting. And we were asking ourselves if we could not make the drive and email instead.
And one of the members said, “What about chocolate cake?” And just that moment made such an impression on me because if we get together, we can eat chocolate cake. But it is not about the chocolate cake. It is about us being together, face to face, eye to eye, hugging each other, getting to know each other people instead of being a little electronic message.
And I have a friend or actually several friends who I say, “Come over and see me.” And they say, “I talk to everybody on the phone. Can’t I just talk to you on the phone?” I said, “No, you have to come over and see me. Or I am going to see you.”
That’s because the human experience is so different than the electronic experience. And so here we have, not only these EMFs flying around, but it is cutting into our human experience.
OLLE JOHANSSON: That is very true indeed. And I today read that in an investigation, it has been shown in the UK. They looked into 2200 teenagers that about 40% of them were deeply addicted to their wireless and smart gadgets.
For instance, in Sweden, when I go in the underground, in the subway and in the buses and trans and so on, it is like being part of a Matrix movie that it has robots everywhere. And I seem to be the only person alive. I am the only one left from the planet. And I love chocolate cakes, so I am eating it, but the rest are not. They are intensely focused on it.
And maybe if they actually solve problems, I would be impressed. But you probably have read about that the Swedish educational system has really plummeted downwards because of lack of control, lack of quality, et cetera in spite of that the Swedish schooling system contains the highest numbers of computers, smart tablets, smart phones, et cetera, everything.
Kids here, they have everything in school and still they don’t come out as Albert Einstein or William Shakespeare. So I am not so impressed by all these gadgets.
So, today, that at the Waldorf School in Silicon Valley, they are using a computer free environment, and it is because parents at the high tech company like Google have demanded it. They don’t want their kids to be sucked into this, things that they provide us with and provide this rather negative world, I would say.
On the other hand, if I could be a little bit blunt, Sweden is famous for liking nudity and sex and so on. When I go on the very same underground subways, trans, busses as a man, there’s no risk to view the cleaves of women because they never notice. I mean you can do whatever you want. You can probably steal their wallets and so on. They wouldn’t react because they are so concentrated.
DEBRA: I see people walking around with the little ear buds. They are listening to whatever it is. And so when they are doing that, they are not aware of their environment. They are not aware of people around them.
OLLE JOHANSSON: Unless you know that quite a number of people that have been hurt badly and even been run over in traffic. Such example in Sweden, people on the bikes who ran across a red light were killed instantly right in the middle of Stockholm because they were, as you say, cut off from reality.
DEBRA: Yeah. Wow. So there’s actually so much we could talk about. We only have about five minutes left. So is there anything that you could tell us about how the situation has improved? Are our computers any safer than they were in the 1990s? Are there some things that you think are basic things that anybody should be doing to protect themselves?
OLLE JOHANSSON: Well, I would like to come back to actually your commercial breaks because they are very interesting from a Swedish point of view.
I would say the core issue is that you should watch what you eat and what you drink and the quality of it. And maybe you need to use dietary supplements.
And I also today read a study that said a team of Italian, Russian, Malaysian scientists that have shown that for instance, electro-hypersensitive people, they have the metabolic alteration with a distinctly increased plasma co-enzyme Q10 oxidation ratio.
That means in layman terms that something is wrong with internal metabolism and it needs to be corrected in some way. And again, it’s hard of course at this stage to know what the culprit behind this is. But at least, you should take care of yourself.
And I think people are more and more, not only in United States, not only in Sweden, but all over the world are realizing this and they also realize they need to take care of the environment, all plants, all the animals, all bacteria, all the water, all the food, everything.
And also of course, as you know, here in Sweden, people with electro-hypersensitivity are officially recognized by our government and parliament as a group with function impairment, what we call a disability or handicapped before. So they do get governmental subsidy. For instance, they have organization that takes care of their interest.
And I do hope that could spread because these people, most of them, they can get along quite well actually. Actually you can live very well without mobile phones and so on. But some of them, they do need accessibility measures on a more grand scale. So that is something that has happened the last approximately 10 years.
DEBRA: There’s so much I want to say. First, I want to say that again, we are separating out people who are, as you said earlier, canaries who are showing that there is a human response to all these electronic things and that there is a damage and that damage could happen to everyone.
But instead of saying, “Oh, these people are showing it early and everybody needs to be concerned about it,” the society is saying, “Oh here’s this group of people who can’t tolerate it and now they have to be a special group.”
I am glad that they are getting the help that they need, but the downside of it is that it separates them from everybody else who also needs to be taking the same precautions.
OLLE JOHANSSON: Indeed and even more so.
DEBRA: Even more so, yes.
OLLE JOHANSSON: The rest of the population, they are not aware of it. So they really need to be careful.
DEBRA: That’s right. And also, in terms of access, I realized some years ago that there actually isn’t any place I can go on earth where I am not exposed to EMFs because it is so global and all these satellites and more cellphone access and everything. And there is no place that I can go where I am not being exposed to it.
So all I can do is, in my own home, not have my wireless phone next to me or not use my cellphone or make sure I am making a certain distance from the monitor. But there’s no place in the world that you can go where there’s no toxic chemicals. There’s no place in the world where you can go where there are no EMFs.
And so we really need to be doing everything we can nutritionally to take care of our bodies. We need to reduce our exposure however we can. And we are going to run out of time in about a minute. There’s so much I want to say.
Are there any final things you’d like to tell us?
OLLE JOHANSSON: No, I think that is an excellent summary. We really need immediate and huge divine vacuum cleaner because there’s so much we need to clean up.
And I am as concerned as you are. And one of the very best ways is to get more information and to listen to radio programs like this.
And I say finally, don’t trust me. Don’t trust you. Go to the sources yourself. The listeners should do that. Read, think, read again, think more and make up your mind. Is this good for you and your family or not?
DEBRA: I completely agree. And just in the last few seconds…
OLLE JOHANSSON: I am going to say if they read enough, maybe they can then come to Stockholm and receive a Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine. It’s the right word.
DEBRA: Oh, I am sorry. Okay, good. So thank you so much, so much for being on the show.
OLLE JOHANSSON: Thank you.
DEBRA: And I hope you will come back again because this is a very big subject that we need to talk about.
OLLE JOHANSSON: That would be lovely. Thank you so much.
DEBRA: Okay. And we will have chocolate cake.
OLLE JOHANSSON: Bye-bye.
DEBRA: Bye. You are listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. Be well.
